do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

[Noght]

Well first off, you all are right and I shouldn't post "snarly" so sorry about that.
To be "dismissed" out of hand by the "Elders" on the site is wrong. Apparently the rule isn't as clear and obvious as Salamander and Unicorn say it is.

I agree with PAW, and apparently so do the Tourny Organizers of Adepticon when I asked them.

I'll end with a quote from Unicorn:

I do not wish to sound offensive, really, but really...

Noght

[Salamander]

I hardly think we are going to reach a different conclusion, you guys are pretty set in stone, as are me and Unicorn.

Case closed.

[Noght]

I hardly think we are going to reach a different conclusion, you guys are pretty set in stone, as are me and Unicorn.

Case closed.

Well we certianly wouldn't want to have a rules discussion in the Rules Forum. Apparently you and Unicorn think that the final rule comes from the Alternating Deployment Rule. Some of us think that Exceptions exist in the Special Abilities Rules.

Any and all reasonable discussion should be encouraged.

Thanks,
Noght

[unicorn]

I am reading it raw,

Read it again. I quoted it directly from the BRB.

Yeah, Read it AGAIN.
Like... For example, start at the top of the page: Special DEPLYEMENT rules
or... the scout rule: ... if deployed in the 2nd way ... players then alternate deplying ...
You can try argue that the scout rule calls you to "set up" the scout uitns, but, well, so are the basic rules for deployment.

You can dislike it. You can argue. You can rage. You can create your own house rules (and you are welcomed to do so). But that is all you can do with the very fact scouts are considered as "deployed" for +1 to start bonus.

[Tachunka]

Scouts are part of the deployment of the army. Page 79, the big letters on the top of the page DEPLOYMENT SPECIAL RULES.
I believe this shows that Unicorn is correct. Scouts count for deployment. Also being ignored is the third sentence in the first paragraph under Scouts, "If deployed in this second manner......." and finally,the second sentence in the last paragraph, "The players then alternate deploying..."

[Caitsidhe]

Heh. I disagree. If true, anytime you have scouts and they do not, you automatically cede the +1 to the other side regardless of how many units they have. You would always be dropping last. It isn't that big an ax to grind one way or the other for me. I just know that at every GW tournament I have been at the +1 was decided by pre-Scout deployment.

[Tachunka]

And this is why I have quit using Scouts in 8th Edition. There is no exception or indication on page 142. Rules are clear and concise. If you scout, and your opponent doesn't, he finishes first.

I don't see how that is happening based on the FAQ.

Q: Must units with the Vanguard deployment special rule be moved
before the roll to see who gets the first turn? (p79)
A: Yes.

And vanguarding is very clearly done after scout deployment.

[Caitsidhe]

And this is why I have quit using Scouts in 8th Edition. There is no exception or indication on page 142. Rules are clear and concise. If you scout, and your opponent doesn't, he finishes first.

I don't see how that is happening based on the FAQ.

Q: Must units with the Vanguard deployment special rule be moved
before the roll to see who gets the first turn? (p79)
A: Yes.

And vanguarding is very clearly done after scout deployment.

I agree that with the rules as written (RAW) Scouts are part of deployment. I'm only commenting on every tournament I've attended. I just go with the flow. My recent Ardboyz list made no use of Scouts so it was neither here nor there to me. I do find it funny that armies with scouts (and thus the ones with the best intelligence from a fluff standpoint) are the ones most likely to go last. Cavalry and scouts in the real world are used to get the jump on your opponent via intelligence they bring back, not necessarily with the scouts or cavalry themselves.

If I were writing the rules, every Scout or Light Cavalry unit you had MORE than your opponent would translate into an additional +1 to go first.

[Cu-Sith]

tachunka I dont think when you use the vanguard movement is relevant. I think that is done before the roll for who goes first so that people cant change their mind about whether or not they want to do it based on who goes first.
Also I know it isnt constructive to the progression of the topic but im pretty chuft that my first post has had so many replies

[Tachunka]

Cu-sith, the reason I quote Vanguard is because the first sentence of the rule makes it clear again that scouts are considered part of deployment, thus if you place last your opponent gets the +1.

Caitsidhe, gathering the information also indicates a return to Army. If you deploy scouts in your deployment zone instead of using the Deployment Special Rule, you get the plus one if you have less units. The rules are simply providing an extra point cost in our case for the scout ability to deploy anywhere and for that sweetness you are also allowing your opponent to go first. A perfect historical example of how this works is Napoleon's Battle of Jena-Auerstadt. His scouts brought him the deployment of the Prussian Army, allowing him to send a small pinning force against the Prussian General at Auerstadt while he crushed the Prussian force at Jena. And those scouting light cavalry came back onto the battlefield in Army formations rather than staying out scouting. You could accomplish the same tactic in Warhammer by using the reserves rule during a meeting engagement to overbalance one side or the other with reinforcements.

[Caitsidhe]

Oh, I realize that cavalry and scouts would be bringing the info back. That is why I believe an army that has lots of such units should be getting the jump. They would, in theory, have seen the opponent and taken back lots of info long before the lines of the battle was actually drawn up. It would give us more reason to take Light Cavarly and Scouts (or flyers).

[Noght]

And this is why I have quit using Scouts in 8th Edition. There is no exception or indication on page 142. Rules are clear and concise. If you scout, and your opponent doesn't, he finishes first.

I don't see how that is happening based on the FAQ.

Q: Must units with the Vanguard deployment special rule be moved
before the roll to see who gets the first turn? (p79)
A: Yes.

And vanguarding is very clearly done after scout deployment.

Ok, these are not mutally exclusive.

Deploy per rules on pg 142. Alternate. Stop. Determine who gets +1.

Go to Page 79 for Deployment Exceptions: Ambushers, Scouts, and Vanguard.

RAW and RAI.

Noght

[Tachunka]

Caitsidhe, I agree, however, I play in a very RAW environment.

Noght, you are doing it again in your argument. Changing words to synonyms or word you like better still does not change the Rules As Written. Nowhere on pages 79 does....

Go to Page 79 for Deployment Exceptions: Ambushers, Scouts, and Vanguard.

Exceptions appear. The page is titled Deployment Special Rules. While what you think it says and the possible intent is, the rules as written are pretty succinct. Provide a documentary evidence stating your belief and I will agree with you. But to play the way you do and evidently so many others is not by the rules as written.

[PaW]

I never argued the fact that scouts are deployed!

I am quoting the fact that
Read the rules for scouts very very closely.
"scouts are set up after all other non-Scout units from both ARMIES have been deployed"(BRB 79)

First turn:
"The player that finished deploying his ARMY first adds +1 to his roll."(BRB 144)

Now regarding Deployment Special rules (BRB 79), army is never mentioned at the top except with the rest of the army.

I can see where you guys are comming from, but because they used the word deployed (meaning to put them on the table in a special way) does not alter the fact the army is already down

Edit: The bold Capitals is there for you to draw the the link between the two sets of wording.

[Git]

I see what you mean PaW, but using what you wrote:

"scouts are set up after all other non-Scout units from both ARMIES have been deployed"(BRB 79)

does NOT say that Scout units are not part of the army. Pretty much the opposite. So when we read the next sentence

"The player that finished deploying his ARMY first adds +1 to his roll."(BRB 144)

we have to include the Scouts.

Now, I agree with the sentiment that Scouts should not affect the +1 to start the game, but when I see the RAW I interpret it like they do. If the RAW and the Rules as Intended are not the same in this case, we have to get an errata or an FAQ on this. Until then we just have to be able to agree with our opponent in casual games, and follow the tournament rules where those apply.

[PaW]

Acutally In that area it doesn't say that they are either.
If anything it specifically excludes them from being dumped with the rest of the army.

"except with the rest of the army"
I am aware that this can also be intreprated as they are part of the army, but it also specifically excludes them as being part of the army for deployment

RAW is subject to intrepretation , and since RAI supports my claim too...

In short in a tournament situation, where its not covered Discuss with your oppenent!

[unicorn]

If you deploy scouts in your deployment zone instead of using the Deployment Special Rule, you get the plus one if you have less units. The rules are simply providing an extra point cost in our case for the scout ability to deploy anywhere and for that sweetness you are also allowing your opponent to go first..

Problem is, you have no choice. Scouts can not be deployed normally. They are deployed after the "normal" deploy ends.

Read the rules for scouts very very closely.
"scouts are set up after all other non-Scout units from both ARMIES have been deployed"(BRB 79)

First turn:
"The player that finished deploying his ARMY first adds +1 to his roll."(BRB 144)

Yes. And in fact, this support the fact scouts DO count in the +1. All you need is to bold a little more text from the 1st rule and you will see it:
"scouts are set up after all other non-Scout units from both ARMIES have been deployed"(BRB 79)
all other units from armies
not whole army
but all other units from the army

[Overmind]

Maybe we need an FAQ for this one if we're going to sit and yell at each other... it seems both sides are firmly entrenched in their opinions and this slap fight isn't solving anything. I know someone said that this was having a discussion but it doesn't seem to be so, mostly just some people yelling at each other...

[unicorn]

I know someone said that this was having a discussion but it doesn't seem to be so, mostly just some people yelling at each other...

And the reason you resurect one month dead topic is just to say this?
...
Anyway, except your theory, I really do not see any yelling into this topic at all. Do you?

[Overmind]

I really need to look at posting dates... I'm not used to being inactive... *sigh* Forgive me. I thought it was an active thread.

As for the yelling I don't know, just seemed like there were two sides, and neither seemed to listen to the other.

[Salamander]

Topic locked. Lets await a FAQ or something of that ilk.