do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

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Cu-Sith
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do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

Post by Cu-Sith »

Hi
Ive been wondering for a while whether scouts such as waywatchers being deployed after everything else is deployed from both sides means that the wood elves never get the +1 on the roll for who goes first even if they have a lot less units then whoever they are playing unless they also have scouts and go last.
i know this question is worded quite strangely but i couldnt think of a better way to put it.
Also I'm a pretty new member and this is my first post so hello everyone! :)
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Re: do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

Post by Breeze »

No scouts do not affect the +1 for first turn. They are deployed once all regular non scout units have been placed. Afterwards you follow the rules of Scouts to deploy them on the field. If you and your opponent have scouts you roll to see who deploys theirs first.
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Re: do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

Post by unicorn »

Breeze wrote:No scouts do not affect the +1 for first turn.
In fact, they do.
They are deployed once all regular non scout units have been placed.
As you stated, they are DEPLOYED. And the +1 goes to 1st person who finish his deployement...

Rules are pretty clear in this: The player who finish to DEPLOY his ARMY 1st gets +1 (BRB 142)

In 7th ed, there was special rule saying the scouts do NOT count towards this rule. This rule is gone now and there is no reason to think there is and rule-based reason why the scouts will not cause this issue. Besides, this is how the rules are interpreted at most of the places and tournaments around the globe.
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Re: do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

Post by Breeze »

Well what if lets say I have a force that is only 5 units and 1 scout unit, and my opponent has 8 units and no scouts, because scouts deploy last my opponent will automatically get the +1
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Re: do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

Post by Lain »

Aye - strange but raw...
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Re: do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

Post by unicorn »

Breeze wrote:Well what if lets say I have a force that is only 5 units and 1 scout unit, and my opponent has 8 units and no scouts, because scouts deploy last my opponent will automatically get the +1
Exactly. And?
Lets say I have the force of 1 regular unit and 10 scouts. My opponent have 7 units. And I will automatically get +1?

Scouts allows you to react upon opponents deploy no matter who have more units. They allow you to directly counter-deploy him. With a units who are not restricted to be in your deploy zone. That is an advantage. Significant advantage. And you are asking for even more, because "it is not fair"? ;)
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Re: do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

Post by Cu-Sith »

thanks for your comments. I have been playing against one of my friends that is a high elf player and he never takes scouts so i was just being hopeful that they wouldnt effect it ahaha i need all the advantages i can get against high elves as im pretty new to the game.
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Re: do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

Post by Lain »

Unicorn - with all due respect - what do you mean?
Don´t you think we have enough handycaps? Do you really think the +1 bonus would skip the allready ridicuolus balance in ANY way?
Sneaky scout armys should be rewarded for - let´s say beeing sneaky scout armys...
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Re: do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

Post by Salamander »

Scout rule is a universal rule, not a wood elf specific one.

And this is how the rules are worded, its fine if you play it different with your friends :)
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Re: do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

Post by unicorn »

Lain wrote:Unicorn - with all due respect - what do you mean?
I mean that the rules are clear and that they make sense. Arguing that they are unfair to one single army or to the army sou personally play is... short-sighted. At best.
Do you really think the +1 bonus would skip the allready ridicuolus balance in ANY way?
I do not know anything about you, your opponents or your gaming environment, but somehow I do NOT consider the 8th ed balance "ridiculous."
And even if I will, it still is not rule-based argument, so it really do not belong into the serious discussion about how the rules works.
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Re: do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

Post by Lain »

I did not speak of Woodelves,i wrote Scouts - same right for all sneaky guys out there...
unicorn wrote: I do not know anything about you, your opponents or your gaming environment, but somehow I do NOT consider the 8th ed balance "ridiculous."
And even if I will, it still is not rule-based argument, so it really do not belong into the serious discussion about how the rules works.
Aye, my fault. I thought the rules were clear and we started to discuss them. Based on our personal opinion...
unicorn wrote: Scouts allows you to react upon opponents deploy no matter who have more units. They allow you to directly counter-deploy him. With a units who are not restricted to be in your deploy zone. That is an advantage. Significant advantage. And you are asking for even more, because "it is not fair"? ;)
Significant advantage? Is this a rule based argument in a serios discussion how the rules work? Advantage? Yes. Significant? Personal opinion...

By the way, i don´t know you, your opponents or your gaming enviroment either, but i´m sure we both have played a few games and can read and understand the rulebook :D
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Re: do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

Post by unicorn »

Lain wrote:By the way, i don´t know you, your opponents or your gaming enviroment either, but i´m sure we both have played a few games and can read and understand the rulebook :D
:D
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Re: do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

Post by Noght »

I actually thought it didn't affect the "who finished deployment first" roll.

The argument that you don't get the +1 because of "tactical" deployment seems to work if you weren't paying more for the scouts in the first place, just compare the cost of Glade Guard vs Glade Guard Scouts. The additional 5 points/model seems to me the cost of "tactical" deployment rather than reducing your chances to go first.

Reading Cat's Ard Boy All comers list strategy of only having 7 "deployable" units for +1 to go first would argue against the prevailing opinion here.

I can't find it in the rule book so I'm gonna look at the BRB FAQ now.

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Re: do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

Post by Salamander »

Gladeguard are 6th edition units, so they were designed for a different environment.

It's pretty clear like Unicorn said, scouts do count.
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Re: do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

Post by unicorn »

Salamander wrote:It's pretty clear like Unicorn said, scouts do count.
Thank you
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Re: do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

Post by Noght »

Okay. I'm just finding it confusing.

Scout rule in BRB says "are set up after all non-Scout units from both armies have been deployed." (pg 79). Implication is that Deployed is past tense, but later in the same paragraph they use they use the word "deployed" again. Sigh. You'd think it would be Errata'd.

I know you don't roll to go first before you deploy scouts, and all Vanguard is done prior to dice roll, so all special deployment needs to be done prior to dicing off.

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Re: do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

Post by Salamander »

they are set up after all non-scout units.

Its not like its a hard phrase to understand. Deploy any non-scout units. Then deploy scout units. And since 8th has no special rule about scout deployment not counting for the +1 to dice, they count.
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Re: do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

Post by Noght »

So our scouts are overpriced and we conceed a 16% advantage to our opponents for the critical 1st turn. Fantastic.

In a normal world an Elite Army (which our unit prices would indicate) would have less units and have the advantage of going first more often using the 8th edition deployment rules.

Well, I guess the Waywatchers need to stay in the box until they are reduced in price and/if the Wood Elf book changes the deployment roll ruling (probably won't though).

I have to tell you, every tourney I've played in allowed me the +1 to go first so far, like 9 games (3 tourneys) so far.

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Re: do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

Post by Salamander »

Tourneys are free to interprit the rules as they see fit, even change them.
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Re: do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

Post by unicorn »

Noght wrote:So our scouts are overpriced and we conceed a 16% advantage to our opponents for the critical 1st turn. Fantastic.

In a normal world an Elite Army (which our unit prices would indicate) would have less units and have the advantage of going first more often using the 8th edition deployment rules.
I do not wish to sound offensive, really, but really...
This is rule-based part of this forum. For discussions about how underpowered or overpriced or weak you consider your units, there are completely different sections.
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Re: do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

Post by Noght »

Caitsidhe posted this in his All Comers Ard Boyz List back in Jan.
This List currently fields (3) Banners and a General. All Lords/Characters within it serve a support role to their units in addition to any offensive magic they provide. The army has a total of only (7) regular drops (remember that Waywatchers go as Scouts) followed by characters. At this point level that is very good and highly likely to yield the WE the +1 toward going first. The Lord's Bowman thrown into the smaller Glade Guard Archers is in there merely because I had points I could spend no other way. In any event, let me go over the basic setup:
No comments (especially with the oh so superior tone from Salamander and Unicorn...love it, I know you KNOWZ the RULZ) then about +1 for Deployment. Just thought I'd throw it out there and muddy it up a bit.

Expecting much Sniffing and Scoffing. Awaiting the imminent beat down. Volley Fire!

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Re: do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

Post by Breeze »

No reason to be disrespectful Noght, they were simply clarifying how the rule is applied RAW. People were not getting it so they made it clear. If you were wise you would appologize since I believe as an Administrator Salamander can choose to suspend your account or even ban you.
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Re: do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

Post by PaW »

Nope they don't count to the +1

Read the rules for scouts very very closely.
"scouts are set up after all other non-Scout units from both armies have been deployed"

First turn:
"The player that finished deploying his army first adds +1 to his roll."(BRB 144)

Scouts come after armies have been deployed, therefore you still get the +1, Scouts are not mentioned in (BRB 142) therefore, do not count!
and as if it was gamesworkshops intention anyways to ping you for taking scouts
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Re: do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

Post by Salamander »

No, you deploy scout units after any non scout units.

The only thing scout rules allow you to do is set up after your oponent has deployed the main part of his army.

And Nought as I already said, Tournies, like ard boyz, are free to interpret the rules however they want. That doesn't change the RAW rule though.
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Re: do scouts effect who gets the +1 for deployment?

Post by PaW »

I am reading it raw,

Read it again. I quoted it directly from the BRB.
after both armies are deployed ( armies are deployed it says)
next stage working out +1 ( the army that finished first , Okay so the armies were finished deploying before the scouts were deployed it just damn well said so!)

Scouts are deployed( Okay so what other word would you use here to mean placing on the table?????) after the armies are finished
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Status: Current, 2nd place!
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