Thunderstomp Question

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Thunderstomp Question

Postby Breeze » 11 Apr 2011, 01:37

Does Thunderstomp receive any bonuses from buffs to the monster (For example a TMA buffed with The Savage Beast of Horros) Or does Thunderstomp always use the unmodified Str characteristic of the monster ?
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Re: Thunderstomp Question

Postby Aemir » 11 Apr 2011, 11:16

Looks like it does take bonuses from spells.
It just doesn't get bonuses from rider's strength and buffs.
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Re: Thunderstomp Question

Postby Shandrakor » 11 Apr 2011, 15:24

No, if you read the BRB Errata Stomp/Thunderstomp/Breath Weapons all do not receive any benefits from spells, items, or special abilities.
Well, my ideas for the next book turned out to be a bust.
But it was still fun working on something of this scale.
For those who care:
viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22620
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Re: Thunderstomp Question

Postby Forestcrab » 11 Apr 2011, 16:32

Shandrakor wrote:No, if you read the BRB Errata Stomp/Thunderstomp/Breath Weapons all do not receive any benefits from spells, items, or special abilities.

FAQ/Errata wrote:Q: Do Stomps or Thunderstomps benefit from any other special rules, equipment or magic items? Or vice versa? (p76)
A: No to both questions.


FAQ doesn't mention anything about spells. Spells are not special rules, equipment or items.
Stomp and thunderstomp uses the models strenght, the savage beast of horros buffs the models strenght.
So I would say spells can affect the strenght of stomp and thunderstomp.

On the other hand, if spell gives your model some special rule, like ASF, the stomp/thunderstomp won't be affected, as FAQ clearly states that stomp/thunderstomp can't benefit from special rules.
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Re: Thunderstomp Question

Postby Breeze » 11 Apr 2011, 18:13

Thanks for the clarification Forestcrab, I may try out the Lore of Beasts i my next game just to see how it compares to the Lore of Life.
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Re: Thunderstomp Question

Postby unicorn » 11 Apr 2011, 18:48

Forestcrab wrote:
Q: Do Stomps or Thunderstomps benefit from any other special rules, equipment or magic items? Or vice versa? (p76)
A: No to both questions.


FAQ doesn't mention anything about spells. Spells are not special rules, equipment or items.

Yes, spells are not special rules. On other hand, spell effects itself ARE special rules. Rules like "+1S +1T" ARE special rules, nothing else.
Stomp and thunderstomp uses the models strenght, the savage beast of horros buffs the models strenght.

So do the Sword of Might. Or Potion of Strength. And you do not receive the bonus from that ones.
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Re: Thunderstomp Question

Postby Breeze » 11 Apr 2011, 19:10

Im glad we have a walking rulebook to clarify such troublesome questions. What would we do without you Unicorn :D

I think I will still give the Lore of Beasts a shot.
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Re: Thunderstomp Question

Postby unicorn » 11 Apr 2011, 19:29

Breeze wrote:I think I will still give the Lore of Beasts a shot.

Lore of the Beast is very viable, you only need few things:
* Instead of TK and TM, your army needs to be focused around dryads. Dryads are OP with beast lore. WDs are strong. TK are decent, TM do not care.
* Cause you need to run multiple dryad units, you need to have multiple woods on the table. Dryads + woods + beats lore = GG.
* If you wish to tryhard, take power scroll and and trensformation and decent unit of WDs with FCG and noble. If you do not mess up the placing (remember that chimera stands outside of the unit), you can take down 35 black orcs on the charge easily. Tested :D

At least, such are my experiences with Beat magic. And result? Beast is decent on WE, but Life is simply OP. Life can easily win you the game with only 2 spells succesfully casted for whole battle. No other lore can do such thing for WE.
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Re: Thunderstomp Question

Postby Forestcrab » 11 Apr 2011, 23:18

unicorn wrote:
Forestcrab wrote:Spells are not special rules, equipment or items.

Yes, spells are not special rules. On other hand, spell effects itself ARE special rules. Rules like "+1S +1T" ARE special rules, nothing else.

Can you show me the page?

unicorn wrote:
Forestcrab wrote:Stomp and thunderstomp uses the models strenght, the savage beast of horros buffs the models strenght.

So do the Sword of Might. Or Potion of Strength. And you do not receive the bonus from that ones.

I know. Sword of might and potion of strenght are magic items. (BRB FAQ page 7: ...special rules, equipment or magic items...)

I just coul'd not find anything stating that spells or their effects would be taken as special rules.
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Re: Thunderstomp Question

Postby unicorn » 12 Apr 2011, 12:20

Forestcrab wrote:Can you show me the page?

BRB 66
Also, you can use the common sense.

I just coul'd not find anything stating that spells or their effects would be taken as special rules.

So what are they? Nothing?
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Re: Thunderstomp Question

Postby Forestcrab » 12 Apr 2011, 23:31

unicorn wrote:
Forestcrab wrote:Can you show me the page?

BRB 66

Thank you.

unicorn wrote:Also, you can use the common sense.

When I ask for page number, I do so because I want to know where to find information that I have missed. This kind of answers don't help me too much.

unicorn wrote:
Forestcrab wrote:I just coul'd not find anything stating that spells or their effects would be taken as special rules.

So what are they? Nothing?


When studying FAQ and BRB I did somehow manage to skip this information about spell effects in page 66.
So, I thought they are basic rules.
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Re: Thunderstomp Question

Postby unicorn » 13 Apr 2011, 08:14

I am glad we clarify this :)
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Re: Thunderstomp Question

Postby Forestcrab » 17 Apr 2011, 12:29

Me too. :)
Cheers.
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Re: Thunderstomp Question

Postby Slugg087 » 12 May 2011, 23:07

I believe that thunderstomp do get the bonus from spells (eg. Wyssans Wildform). Since the faq only states:
"Q: Do Stomps or Thunderstomps benefit from any other special
rules, equipment or magic items? Or vice versa? (p76)
A: No to both questions."
It doesn´t say anything about spells in the text.

unicorn wrote: I just coul'd not find anything stating that spells or their effects would be taken as special rules.

So what are they? Nothing?

Spells are spells and spell effects are called spell effects.

It makes logic too that an ogres weapon doesn´t come into effect when he crushes his foe under his foot. While a spell that makes him stronger makes him put more weight in his kick.
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Re: Thunderstomp Question

Postby unicorn » 12 May 2011, 23:37

Slugg087 wrote:
unicorn wrote: I just coul'd not find anything stating that spells or their effects would be taken as special rules.

So what are they? Nothing?

Spells are spells and spell effects are called spell effects.

What about to try to read whole discussion above your post?
And what about to check the page reference given above?

BRB 66. Spells cause special rules.
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Re: Thunderstomp Question

Postby sirkently » 13 May 2011, 00:33

Well, I have read the entire thread, and the rule on page 66 and I have to disagree with the interpretation. Page 66 does not say that spells equal special rules, but that a model can get special rules from a spell. There is a subtle difference there. As there is no special rule "Plus to Strength," the savage beast spell isn't giving the model a special rule. It is giving the model an augment to its strength. As such, I would argue that it will affect stomp and thunderstomp.

Now the two examples used are sword of might, and potion of strength. I would say that of course the sword won't help, as you have to be using it to hit, and aren't with a stomp, as well as the FAQ stating that magic items won't help. That is fairly clear. As for the potion of strength, I would say that it would help. You aren't hitting with the potion, it has already been used up. It doesn't exist anymore, and you have a short duration bonus to strength. To me, this is an augment to your stats, not the use of a magic item to attack with.

That would be my view.
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Re: Thunderstomp Question

Postby unicorn » 13 May 2011, 10:17

sirkently wrote:As for the potion of strength, I would say that it would help. You aren't hitting with the potion, it has already been used up. It doesn't exist anymore, and you have a short duration bonus to strength. To me, this is an augment to your stats, not the use of a magic item to attack with.

Lol. This is pretty funny, as your arguments makes perfects sense logic-wise. But there is the problem that this game often do not act logic, but by the rules. Potion of trength is magic item and there is no doubt that the +3S will not affect your thunderstomp. As well as any talisman/armor who increases your strength (and as well as spells, but let this aside - we both already stated our points in this case). It is effect of magic items what is something clearly solved in FAQ.

But yeah, this game is often counter-logic and sometimes, it is pretty annoying :(
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Re: Thunderstomp Question

Postby sirkently » 13 May 2011, 13:15

unicorn wrote:Lol. This is pretty funny, as your arguments makes perfects sense logic-wise. But there is the problem that this game often do not act logic, but by the rules.


I always play by the rules. The fact that I interpret them differently than you, while you may find that funny, doesn't mean that I am trying to cheat. I understand your argument, but I disagree with it. I think you are extrapolating from what is actually written, to conform to your view of the rules. I just don't think that extrapolation is correct.
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Re: Thunderstomp Question

Postby Slugg087 » 13 May 2011, 13:30

unicorn wrote:What about to try to read whole discussion above your post?
And what about to check the page reference given above?

BRB 66. Spells cause special rules.

I have read the entire thread and your reference to the BRB. And i agree with sirkently here that spells can give
models special rules. It doesn´t say that spell effects are special rules.

unicorn wrote:Lol. This is pretty funny, as your arguments makes perfects sense logic-wise. But there is the problem that this game often do not act logic, but by the rules. Potion of strength is magic item and there is no doubt that the +3S will not affect your thunderstomp. As well as any talisman/armor who increases your strength (and as well as spells, but let this aside - we both already stated our points in this case). It is effect of magic items what is something clearly solved in FAQ.

But yeah, this game is often counter-logic and sometimes, it is pretty annoying :(


Yeah i agree sometimes the BRB is not logic. But here it is clear that a spell that boosts your strength also gives a bonus to your stomp. Since a spell effect is not a special rule, equipment nor a magic item.

Regarding the potion of strength (PoS) however it is more of an interpretation issue. Yes the PoS is a magic item and drinking it means you are using a magic item but that doesn´t mean that your strength transforms into a magic item. And as far as i know you don´t beat your enemy with the empty bottle :wink: I know would allow it in my games, but it is up to each individual how they wish to interprete the rules and use them :)

Edited my explanation a bit so it made it clearer what i meant :)
Last edited by Slugg087 on 13 May 2011, 13:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Thunderstomp Question

Postby unicorn » 13 May 2011, 13:31

sirkently wrote:
unicorn wrote:Lol. This is pretty funny, as your arguments makes perfects sense logic-wise. But there is the problem that this game often do not act logic, but by the rules.


I always play by the rules. The fact that I interpret them differently than you, while you may find that funny, doesn't mean that I am trying to cheat. I understand your argument, but I disagree with it. I think you are extrapolating from what is actually written, to conform to your view of the rules. I just don't think that extrapolation is correct.

I do not find funny that you interpret the rules different that me. I find funny that while your arguments are perfectly logical (I mean that " You aren't hitting with the potion, it has already been used up. It doesn't exist anymore, and you have a short duration bonus to strength."), they are not based on the rules, but on common sense. What is pretty ironical, if you think about it.
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Re: Thunderstomp Question

Postby unicorn » 13 May 2011, 13:36

Slugg087 wrote:And i agree with sirkently here that spells can give
models special rules. It doesn´t say that spell effects are special rules.


I think you miss one crucial sentense:
A special rule can boost a model's chances of causing damage, such as by granting poisoned weapons, or enhance its Strength.
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Re: Thunderstomp Question

Postby Slugg087 » 13 May 2011, 13:44

unicorn wrote:
Slugg087 wrote:And i agree with sirkently here that spells can give
models special rules. It doesn´t say that spell effects are special rules.


I think you miss one crucial sentense:
A special rule can boost a model's chances of causing damage, such as by granting poisoned weapons, or enhance its Strength.


Yes a special rule can enhance a models strength but that doesn´t mean that everytime a models strength is enhanced it is a special rule.
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Re: Thunderstomp Question

Postby sirkently » 13 May 2011, 13:48

unicorn wrote:I think you miss one crucial sentense:
A special rule can boost a model's chances of causing damage, such as by granting poisoned weapons, or enhance its Strength.


A special rule can give you a plus to strength. That doesn't mean that a plus to strength is a special rule. I can find no correlation in the rules that would lead me to believe that. The unicorn's charge bonus is a good example of a special rule that gives a bonus to strength.
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Re: Thunderstomp Question

Postby sirkently » 13 May 2011, 14:11

unicorn wrote:I find funny that while your arguments are perfectly logical, they are not based on the rules, but on common sense.


And just to be clear, my arguments are always based on the rules. I have played long enough to know that GW doens't know the meaning of common sense in a lot of instances.
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Re: Thunderstomp Question

Postby unicorn » 13 May 2011, 14:31

sirkently wrote:I have played long enough to know that GW doens't know the meaning of common sense in a lot of instances.

:D Do not do this to me, I just nearly fall of my chair! :D
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