Vampire Counts + Lore of Beasts

[Kulgan86]

Hey guys, I guess a few people here also play Counts so I'm starting this thread.

I was just looking at the VC in this edition and it struck me they have the ability to create their version of Caith's glass nuke, only this one wouldn't be made of glass but reinforced concrete instead.

The general set up:

Large unit of Black Knights, Full command, Banner of Strigos ( hatred )

- Vampire Lord
extra magic level
Forbidden Lore => Beasts
Red Fury
Sword of +3 attacks => Giving him 7 attacks standard, allowing him another attack for every wound he inflicts.

- Vampire BSB // Whight King BSB

- Vampire with walking Death ( +1 static CR )

And outfitted with whatever equipment desirable.


The tactic would obviously be casting The Savage Beast of Horros, creating a unit that will slay anything.
What's so great is you're getting all spells of the lore of Beasts. And the unit is T4 with a 2+ As for protection. Otherwise it would rely on the same advantages as a Wild Rider configuration.
That Vamp Lord, if boosted by Savage would have 10 S8 hatred attacks, and whatever wounds he makes he gets another attack for. So he'd get about 16 attacks S8 attacks per turn.

Any mistakes/thoughts?

[unicorn]

The "super death star of VC" in 8th eddition looks like this:

VC lord, lvl 3, forbidden arts (with beast), red fury, power scroll (and pretty much anything else)
BSB, Darkenhof Banner
Grave guard unit, Strigoi standard

The point is simple. You get into combat, prey for enough PDs. If you have them, you cast the Savage Beast of Horros on the unit as 1st spell, if not, you directly tear Power scorll, roll 6 dices, turn yourself into Mountain chimera and pray to not end in the Warp. Everything else is OK for you.
Once you are hydra, you have re-roll to hit and regeneration; and eventually S8 and T8. And you have Red Fury. All this things are not your magical items nor your mundane equiptment, so they still works.
And now the fun begins - you have 4D6+1 S8 poisoned attacks hitting nearly everything on 3+ with re-roll, wounding on 2+, and each wound generates you one more attack. Plus you have 2D6 S4 autohits from breath weapon and D6 S7 autohits from thunderstomp. Plus you can be healed, you can be magically moved, you can get ASF+re-roll to hit; and if you play 3500+ pts battle, you can get WS10 from fencers blade/helm of command combo provided by 2nd vampire lord.

Butt beware, the combo of Kadon and non-magical items rules is forbidden on many places by house rules.

[Shandrakor]

Yeah, I'm sure the only reason I didn't see this or something similar in Ard Boyz last Saturday was because the guy didn't have a Chimera model for the WYSIWYG tournament.

Instead, he just ran a hero with Loremaster Beasts and movement 9 from something. Then he solo charged with it on Dryads and used a Power Scroll turning into a Fire Dragon instead. Disposable character that does some nasty damage before dieing and there's not much you can do about it with such a huge charge range.

[Frimbleglim]

Even better make the vampire ethereal too. This remains when the vampire is in dragon form.

[unicorn]

Even better make the vampire ethereal too. This remains when the vampire is in dragon form.

Being ethereal will mean you do not have red fury. And as you can be healed and you have 4+ regeneration, I do not think the ethereal is better that more attacks.

[mabelode]

Uni said;

I do not think the ethereal is better that more attacks.

Why? Understanding that CR is not all about wounds, an Ethereal unit in the flank of a mundane weapon bearing unit is going to cause any amount of grief.

[Shandrakor]

Because an insane number of extra attacks while in Chimera form is far better than not having return attacks. This is especially so if you wipe out the unit in front of you and don't have any return attacks to deal with.

[unicorn]

Why? Understanding that CR is not all about wounds, an Ethereal unit in the flank of a mundane weapon bearing unit is going to cause any amount of grief.

Because we are taling here about one specific combo. And because with this combo, it is very unlikely there will be any wounds caused on your chimera.
And because in the matter of CR, having like 7+ more wounds caused is much more useful that that maximally 1 wound, you will suffer back.

[Soltari]

Hi,
as my friend plays VC with beast transformation, could you clear me some doubts? While transformed, dragon/chimera is still undead, so that can be invocated by other wizards? And if before transforming has for example 1 wound only, after dispell of the transformation he has 1 would only again, correct, he is not full?
Thx

[unicorn]

While transformed, dragon/chimera is still undead, so that can be invocated by other wizards?

Yes, as he keeps his special rules - and the Undead and Vampire rules are one of them.

And if before transforming has for example 1 wound only, after dispell of the transformation he has 1 would only again, correct, he is not full?

It is not important how many wounds you have, but how many you already lost. The No of wounds suffered transforms from character to monster and from monster back to character.
Use this rule, as this is the most simple explanation how it works.

[Soltari]

The No of wounds suffered transforms from character to monster and from monster back to character.

So let say Vampire lord sufferes 2 wounds before transformation, after transformation into chimera has only 8 wounds (10-2), when in chimera form suffers next 2 wounds (in total 4, reducing chimera to 6) and after dispell should be lord removed from the game?

[Shandrakor]

Yes, as the Lord will still have 4 wounds on him, which is more than his starting value, so he dies as soon as the Transformation is dispelled.

[unicorn]

Yes, as the Lord will still have 4 wounds on him, which is more than his starting value, so he dies as soon as the Transformation is dispelled.

Exactly.
And this is the big advantage of VC. They can heal their Chimera SO easily...

[Frimbleglim]

Ethereal is still good and possibly better than red fury for the following reasons:

Regeneration can be taken away by a flaming attack for the entire phase. If one character with a flaming sword causes an unsaved wound you don't get the regeneration save against the attack of any of the rank and file guys either. Not so etherealness. In this situation only the character will hurt you and then the rank an file can't at all. Much less of a problem. You still have your regen if the attacks are magical (and not flaming).

So you win your combat and are looking around for the next one... There are 40 repeater crossbowmen looking at you. They won't cause many wounds but they could well cause some. You could crush them in combat but then they would get to stand and shoot. However if you are ethereal this is not a problem. They can't hurt you. This also applies to most cannon shot stone throwers etc but most importantly it applies for any unit that is making large number of (non magical) attacks. No matter how poor the unit you are fight is in terms of WS and Str if they can get enough attacks against you (and the great fire dragon and mountain chimera are on "HUGE" bases) they will be able to hurt you and possibly even kill you with a careful tactical dispel.

So unless you are fighting demons with the banner of eternal flame etherealness is well worth considering.

[Shandrakor]

I don't know, last I checked, everyone but Orcs and Empire's artillery were magical... As for the Ethereal vs Red Fury debate, I think you were kind of missing the point.

The point was that Red Fury made said character dish out umpteen attacks that hit and wounded on such low values that it would demolish any unit it went up against to the point that unless they were naturally Stubborn or Unbreakable, they would probably need Insane Courage to not break if they weren't wiped out. Ethereal adds no damage output and only makes you more survivable against certain things. Red Fury made you comfortably win combat against just about anything.

[unicorn]

The red fury is far more usefull in this case too...

Why? If you win the combat and you are facing such units presence on battlefield, you should cancel your chimera by your own. The chimera is there NOT to take down whole enemy army. It is there to take down the most crucial enemy unit. And this is double true if they have warmachines. The chances you will fight in more that 1 round of combat with chimera are DAMN slim, no matter the circumstances. Basing your strategy areund surving with it for another combat is wrong. Basing your strategy around roflstomping one crucial enemy unit is what you should aim for.

And this is why you prefer to have red fury over ethernal.

BTW, you still have 10W. And all that stone throwers and cannons have D6 wounds. And only if they get you under the hole. And their shooting phase is AFTER their magic phase. You have decent chances to survive with your chimera. And then you can heal yourself with your own magic.

[Kulgan86]

I am I wrong or is the assumption no warmachine can target you if you are in close combat still valid? Even if you are a monster?

[Salamander]

That ain't an assumption, thats a rule You can never shoot into combat (unless you have a special rule saying you can)

[unicorn]

I am I wrong or is the assumption no warmachine can target you if you are in close combat still valid? Even if you are a monster?

That is true, tough you will not be in that combat in his turn like... for sure