DE Spearhead- At last!

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Re: DE Spearhead- At last!

Post by innerwolf »

unicorn wrote: I am talking about 2 all-commers list facing each other, but that is not important.
One of this list can massacre some armies and will be murdered by a few: this is a extreme list. Well, I don't see Sethayla as all-comers, but I suppose it's a matter of oppinion.
unicorn wrote: About that armor. Yup, sounds crazy. It even is a little crazy. On other hand, on average, well played DE noble will receive much more incoming attacks that good played WE noble:
WE are most the time the charging ones. WE chooses their opponents most the time. WE needs to break in 1st turn of fight most the time.
DE are definitelly not so often the charging ones. DE have much harder time to choose where and who to fight. DE are made to be sort of for hammer-and-anvil army, so they need to spend a lot more time in CC.

Or do you think I am that wrong?
You are right on most of your points.
I only think WE can find opponents nearly impossible to break in 1st turn of fight like VC, Daemons, Stubborn troops and Dwarfs.
And also that DE magic items allow them to have viable heroes from all styles( skirmisher loner, infantry, cavalry, monster mounted) while we can only field competitively alters, wardancers and great eagle heroes( the mobile, choose easy combats ones) while cavalry, monster mounted and on-rank and file characters are only for fun. Maybe our list try to force a supposed style in our heroes, but i don't like this that much.
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Re: DE Spearhead- At last!

Post by Minsc »

Crossbows didn´t get AP?...they only get it through a banner
RxB's did get AP, however there's a magic banner as well that makes the units attacks have the AP rule as well.
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Re: DE Spearhead- At last!

Post by unicorn »

innerwolf wrote:And also that DE magic items allow them to have viable heroes from all styles( skirmisher loner, infantry, cavalry, monster mounted)
Well, you have so many experiences against new DE book, or this is just what you think? And that "viable" - is that means as" usefull" or "great", or just "aviable"? I really don't think they have much more options that we have.
Loner? Why, who, how?
Infantry? BSB, what else is "great" infantry build?
Cavalry? Well, as long as their "heavy" cavalry is stupid and their fast cavalry easy to kill, at least from my experience most of DE players did not see this as so great option. But not bad, as well.
Monster? Yup, dragon raider.
while we can only field competitively alters, wardancers and great eagle heroes( the mobile, choose easy combats ones) while cavalry, monster mounted and on-rank and file characters are only for fun. Maybe our list try to force a supposed style in our heroes, but i don't like this that much
Well, without wishing to be rude, I found this statement as highly lying.

Alters and wandancers are great. Eagle heroes sort of too.
Cavalry heroes? I field at least one in most of my lists, and I am pretty satisfied with him. And AFAIK I am not alone. Not great, but not bad as well...
Monster mounted? Beside fact Eagle is moster too, what you highly ignore in this comparation, dragon raider is damn good choice too. DE dragon is better, but while his own army is slower that ours, we can make our one cooperate with it much better.
RnF? BSB in rnf can do damn well, but OK, not "great" choice most the times (besides EG army). Great weapon hero in EG is basic build. Scout sniper is kind of "rnf" too, and not bad choice. Besides wardancer is RnF too.

And now, please let me introduce you other 2 aviable heroes WE have and you completly ignore in order to give all credits to DE: Ancient and Branchie.
Ancient, with damn under-priced AoN (which can be much better that regeneration, depending on your style), T6W6S6, with all his terror, strangkleroot, 2xTS and Ld9 stubbron, you have one of the best lord choices in whole WFB.
Branchie, damn cheap character, who can give you 2DD and still have poison attacks or AoN, if I will think just usual builds.

Do you really think you can prove that DE have better character choices that WE have..? With minimally wardancer, alter, eagle, dragon and treeman to be "good" choices; and mounted, "no-kindread" RnF, scout and branchie to be at least "average"?
---
I ignore Singer/weaver, as I thinkl you ignore DE magic users as well. But with TS spaming, you can mess up your opponents plans damn easily. Not so great in direct influence as DE mages, but still damn viable choice.
Unicorn's conversions (updated 1st Jun)
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BSB, mounted noble, WD noble, Branchie, Alter, Treeman, 12 WR, 10 WD, 10 GR, 10 WW, 5 Dryads, 5 WhR, 6 Tk, Altar of Khaine
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Treeman, 10 WD, dragon lord, Alter, 9 WhR, 5 GR, DE sin, OK Butcher, Beast heroes x5
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Re: DE Spearhead- At last!

Post by Dilgar »

Minsc wrote:
Crossbows didn´t get AP?...they only get it through a banner
RxB's did get AP, however there's a magic banner as well that makes the units attacks have the AP rule as well.
Cool!
That was one thing my DE friend wanted :nod:
...Will be interesting to fight him with his new and shiny bible :wink:

One general question, since I do not have the book or time atm to read through Druchii, has the general playing style changed alot for DE now as ASF did for HE?
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Re: DE Spearhead- At last!

Post by Minsc »

DE hit harder than before (mostly thanks to Hatred), but are as fragile as before. (Bar some characters with protective items.)
Their versatily has increased greatly, and the number of dirty tricks they can hide in their sleeves has increased as well.
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Re: DE Spearhead- At last!

Post by innerwolf »

unicorn wrote: Well, you have so many experiences against new DE book, or this is just what you think? And that "viable" - is that means as" usefull" or "great", or just "aviable"? I really don't think they have much more options that we have.
Loner? Why, who, how?
Infantry? BSB, what else is "great" infantry build?
Cavalry? Well, as long as their "heavy" cavalry is stupid and their fast cavalry easy to kill, at least from my experience most of DE players did not see this as so great option. But not bad, as well.
Monster? Yup, dragon raider.
0 experience. But I know every magic item they have available, and math-hammer is how list are built in the begining.
By viable I mean all-comers, tournament competitive.
Loner? Assasins which can scout by default, with BS9 3x shots Rending stars which wound on 2+ with the right venom and Steed of Shadows as a bound spell
Infantry? Rock solid hero with hatred and at least 4+ save, regeneration and a inverse ward which means 2+ ward against St5+,3+ against St4, 4+ against St3
Cavalry? They have better ofensive and defensive magic items to go with their heavy cavalry. And their fast cavalry is more difficult to kill than ours, but it's another thing.
Monster? Better dragon( for combat Lords and Mage Lords) and Manticores with KB for mere heroes, both with hatred. Better magic items to protect the rider.
unicorn wrote:
Well, without wishing to be rude, I found this statement as highly lying.

Alters and wandancers are great. Eagle heroes sort of too.
Cavalry heroes? I field at least one in most of my lists, and I am pretty satisfied with him. And AFAIK I am not alone. Not great, but not bad as well...
Monster mounted? Beside fact Eagle is moster too, what you highly ignore in this comparation, dragon raider is damn good choice too. DE dragon is better, but while his own army is slower that ours, we can make our one cooperate with it much better.
RnF? BSB in rnf can do damn well, but OK, not "great" choice most the times (besides EG army). Great weapon hero in EG is basic build. Scout sniper is kind of "rnf" too, and not bad choice. Besides wardancer is RnF too.

And now, please let me introduce you other 2 aviable heroes WE have and you completly ignore in order to give all credits to DE: Ancient and Branchie.
Ancient, with damn under-priced AoN (which can be much better that regeneration, depending on your style), T6W6S6, with all his terror, strangkleroot, 2xTS and Ld9 stubbron, you have one of the best lord choices in whole WFB.
Branchie, damn cheap character, who can give you 2DD and still have poison attacks or AoN, if I will think just usual builds.

Do you really think you can prove that DE have better character choices that WE have..? With minimally wardancer, alter, eagle, dragon and treeman to be "good" choices; and mounted, "no-kindread" RnF, scout and branchie to be at least "average"?
---
I ignore Singer/weaver, as I thinkl you ignore DE magic users as well. But with TS spaming, you can mess up your opponents plans damn easily. Not so great in direct influence as DE mages, but still damn viable choice.
I would like to know your cavalry hero. As far as I know, they are fragile, very weak in combat and don't give enough to the army as a whole.
Between you and I we already answered monster ones. They have better monsters and better protection and weapons.
Rank and file heroes(I meant, inside ranked units) suffer from this "they don't have defence because they don't need it". They do need it, they can't choose their combats. So nobles/BSB/lords in EG units are too fragile, more if compared to DE equivalents. Scout sniper is bland, and Wardancer nobles where already listed as competitive.

I'm sorry, I was talking only about elf characters.
But Branchwraith is a slightly buffed dryad which happens to be a DD battery( and is only used because of our lack of magic defence.
Treeman Ancient could be the best Lord in WFB if it wasn't also a Rare unit. Even Greater Daemons are only Lords.
But even if they are good, Ancient leave you without leadership 10( Highborn) or decent magic ofence/defence( Spellweaver). They are good, but they have also cons.

I think DE could come with better characters than ours when they have 1 or 2 months to toy with the different options. But it is yet to be known in the future.
And yes, I left out mages on purpose, as theirs are plain better for me( Treesinging is too situational and requires a lot of points to be effective).
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Re: DE Spearhead- At last!

Post by unicorn »

innerwolf wrote:By viable I mean all-comers, tournament competitive.
Make sence
Loner? Assasins which can scout by default, with BS9 3x shots Rending stars which wound on 2+ with the right venom and Steed of Shadows as a bound spell
For 170 pts unit upgrade, M5, shooting range is like what..? 8"? And one wound, if I remeber correctly? T3 no AS for sure... Well, take him as a loner, please, please, pretty please!
Infantry? Rock solid hero with hatred and at least 4+ save, regeneration and a inverse ward which means 2+ ward against St5+,3+ against St4, 4+ against St3
What is this hero good for? To take all this stuff, he must be lord; sit A4S4. With 70 pts just in defence, and he is not unbrekable, most probaly not even stubborn. Not bad choice for me, break, run, kill! I am much more afraid from offenzive lords that from this "rocky" build.
Cavalry? They have better ofensive and defensive magic items to go with their heavy cavalry. And their fast cavalry is more difficult to kill than ours, but it's another thing.
Teir fast cavalry is only unit I like more that our equivalent; from whole DE list. Their heavy cavalry is just... Stupid. One failed test and your plans are just there.
Cold ones are not bad, but I will never think about them as anything like "uber" unit, as you are trying to say. Even with any kind of magic items.
Monster? Better dragon( for combat Lords and Mage Lords) and Manticores with KB for mere heroes, both with hatred. Better magic items to protect the rider.
And slower army to support them. I mention all this already.
I would like to know your cavalry hero. As far as I know, they are fragile, very weak in combat and don't give enough to the army as a whole.
Sniper general. Ld9, quick movement, can go either with GG or GR, and he greatly supports my defenzive part of army if I need it. He is damn good to make GR support charges strong and fearsome for many units; and he is good enough to scare opponents mages...
Between you and I we already answered monster ones. They have better monsters and better protection and weapons.
Between you and me, nope. Our monsters are about at the some. Eagle is cheap flying monster they do not have. Please, innerwolf, just stop mystaken plane CC capabilities with overall income... Our dragon is good, their is better. Our can go into woods, their will suffer if try. Can turn out as AWESOME capabilitie. But ok, their dragon is better. It always was. Our dragon is about the worst in WFB. I understand that is other problem to you; other thing you need to have "at least average" no matter what.
Rank and file heroes(I meant, inside ranked units) suffer from this "they don't have defence because they don't need it". They do need it, they can't choose their combats. So nobles/BSB/lords in EG units are too fragile, more if compared to DE equivalents. Scout sniper is bland, and Wardancer nobles where already listed as competitive.
Oh OK, you ask RnF unist as RnF, not as overall? Well, then you are right. And do you know why? IT IS BECASUE WE HAVE JUST 1 (ONE) RNF UNIT WHICH WE CAN GO WITHOUT EASILY, while DE can not go without theirs...
I'm sorry, I was talking only about elf characters.
Ah, so. So you ignore our best character in order to be able to say "de characters are much better that WE opnes? Dman, what a tricky strategy! You are so good, you got me! I think you compare all hero slots, but you compare just all DE slots to half of ours! You really got me!
Treeman Ancient could be the best Lord in WFB if it wasn't also a Rare unit. Even Greater Daemons are only Lords.
And dragon takes hero slot. And what?
But even if they are good, Ancient leave you without leadership 10( Highborn) or decent magic ofence/defence( Spellweaver). They are good, but they have also cons.
If they will have none, then WE will be broken. I am glad trheir are not; and I am glad that we have "just" one fo the best lord choices in the game and not the far best one.
I think DE could come with better characters than ours when they have 1 or 2 months to toy with the different options. But it is yet to be known in the future.
I better ignore this, as I really wish not to become rude. Again.
And yes, I left out mages on purpose, as theirs are plain better for me( Treesinging is too situational and requires a lot of points to be effective).
Yes, they are, It is because we are one of the armies wit hweakest magic in whole WFB, traditionally. And because DE are on of the armies with the strongest magic phase. Also traditionally.
Unicorn's conversions (updated 1st Jun)
Painted
BSB, mounted noble, WD noble, Branchie, Alter, Treeman, 12 WR, 10 WD, 10 GR, 10 WW, 5 Dryads, 5 WhR, 6 Tk, Altar of Khaine
Finished
Treeman, 10 WD, dragon lord, Alter, 9 WhR, 5 GR, DE sin, OK Butcher, Beast heroes x5
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Re: DE Spearhead- At last!

Post by innerwolf »

unicorn wrote:Loner? Assasins which can scout by default, with BS9 3x shots Rending stars which wound on 2+ with the right venom and Steed of Shadows as a bound spell
For 170 pts unit upgrade, M5, shooting range is like what..? 8"? And one wound, if I remeber correctly? T3 no AS for sure... Well, take him as a loner, please, please, pretty please![/quote]

They are two wounds. They don't have to be loners, they could stay into their units until they can fly to a safe spot.
What is this hero good for? To take all this stuff, he must be lord; sit A4S4. With 70 pts just in defence, and he is not unbrekable, most probaly not even stubborn. Not bad choice for me, break, run, kill! I am much more afraid from offenzive lords that from this "rocky" build.
Maybe in a Deathstar unit of cheap Black Guard with 5 + ward from the cauldron and ASF from the banner he looks better for you. Or mount him in a Cold One and give him the inverse ward if you want a noble, for a cheap, hard hero.Stupidity is not that bad a deal with Ld 9.
Cold ones are not bad, but I will never think about them as anything like "uber" unit, as you are trying to say. Even with any kind of magic items.
Not uber, not bad. As our beloved "heavy cavalry" which is Wild Riders. I don't have anything to say here. A hero on Wild Riders is fragile and contribute little to the units CC. A hero on Cold One Riders is 1+(with cloack) and a ward/regeneration if you like, and has +3 St 6 rerollable attacks on the charge.
Sniper general. Ld9, quick movement, can go either with GG or GR, and he greatly supports my defenzive part of army if I need it. He is damn good to make GR support charges strong and fearsome for many units; and he is good enough to scare opponents mages...
I'm sorry, but I wouldn't say it's the best option at all. And you don't use a Lord? More points to spend, I suppose.
Between you and me, nope. Our monsters are about at the some. Eagle is cheap flying monste r they do not have. Please, innerwolf, just stop mystaken plane CC capabilities with overall income... Our dragon is good, their is better. Our can go into woods, their will suffer if try. Can turn out as AWESOME capabilitie. But ok, their dragon is better. It always was. Our dragon is about the worst in WFB. I understand that is other problem to you; other thing you need to have "at least average" no matter what.[/quote]

They have Black Pegasus.
I don't complain about our dragon, the breath weapon is bad but it's only a small detail. the Lord which goes on top is what is sub-par. But the fact our army can support it better than others could balance things out.
Oh OK, you ask RnF unist as RnF, not as overall? Well, then you are right. And do you know why? IT IS BECASUE WE HAVE JUST 1 (ONE) RNF UNIT WHICH WE CAN GO WITHOUT EASILY, while DE can not go without theirs...
Ok. It doesn't change the fact from all the heroes you were considering RnF, only wardancer characters are good for their job.
Ah, so. So you ignore our best character in order to be able to say "de characters are much better that WE opnes? Dman, what a tricky strategy! You are so good, you got me! I think you compare all hero slots, but you compare just all DE slots to half of ours! You really got me!
I began talking about viability of elven characters depending on available protection/magic items. Ancients are not elven nor are able to choose magic items. I wasn't trying to get you or anything, but good sarcasm.
And dragon takes hero slot. And what?
If they will have none, then WE will be broken. I am glad trheir are not; and I am glad that we have "just" one fo the best lord choices in the game and not the far best one.
Treman Ancients are very good. But I don't think we can claim they are the best Lords. However I would prefer a better balance between the appeal of choosing a Treeman Ancient and an Elven Lord.
I better ignore this, as I really wish not to become rude. Again.
Thank you. However, I don't think your comment would offend me if I'm not offended to this point.
Yes, they are, It is because we are one of the armies wit hweakest magic in whole WFB, traditionally. And because DE are on of the armies with the strongest magic phase. Also traditionally.
I wasn't complaining about it. I left tehm out of comparison because it's so obvious, and I can understand why it's like this.

I have to be honest. Now I feel we are arguing for the sake of the argument. It must be tiring for you to answer my post point for point only to disagree with me, and it's more or less the same for me. So we could agree to disagree, and in addition I could admit DE and WE are different armies and shut the **** up. Or begin using a Treeman Ancient and forgetting Highborns.
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Re: DE Spearhead- At last!

Post by Mist Walker »

Innerwolf. First you've just continued the argument before saying end it, leaving it would be a blow to anyone's pride.

And also, by the way you describe cold one knights as being better than wild riders which you describe as "our beloved heavy cavalry". Where on earth did you get that. The are the CLOSEST thing we have to heavy cav. but cannot be used like that.

You forget what makes wood elves wood elves and not high or dark elves with other options.

oh, and you are always going to make a slight compromise when you want a fluffy army unless you're going for the army/race's fluff in general
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Re: DE Spearhead- At last!

Post by unicorn »

innerwolf wrote:
unicorn wrote:Sniper general. Ld9, quick movement, can go either with GG or GR, and he greatly supports my defenzive part of army if I need it. He is damn good to make GR support charges strong and fearsome for many units; and he is good enough to scare opponents mages...
I'm sorry, but I wouldn't say it's the best option at all. And you don't use a Lord? More points to spend, I suppose.
My lord is machine gun Alter. I love him as he is nice, all-round character, and he proves to me to be able to do its work agains any kind of army I met up to today.
Other point in this is points spread if anyone of them will die (most often noone, but can happend). 289 pts lord vs 143 pts hero.
Other point is that Ld10 proves to works agains my tactics, as with +2 Ld bonus my drads sometimes did not break in moments I need them to do it; and my trapping strategy works a lot with this.
Unicorn's conversions (updated 1st Jun)
Painted
BSB, mounted noble, WD noble, Branchie, Alter, Treeman, 12 WR, 10 WD, 10 GR, 10 WW, 5 Dryads, 5 WhR, 6 Tk, Altar of Khaine
Finished
Treeman, 10 WD, dragon lord, Alter, 9 WhR, 5 GR, DE sin, OK Butcher, Beast heroes x5
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Re: DE Spearhead- At last!

Post by innerwolf »

unicorn wrote: My lord is machine gun Alter. I love him as he is nice, all-round character, and he proves to me to be able to do its work agains any kind of army I met up to today.
Other point in this is points spread if anyone of them will die (most often noone, but can happend). 289 pts lord vs 143 pts hero.
Other point is that Ld10 proves to works agains my tactics, as with +2 Ld bonus my drads sometimes did not break in moments I need them to do it; and my trapping strategy works a lot with this.
Well, I still find machine gun alter a bit overpriced for what it does, but it's not a bad combo. However, when I fielded it I felt he was too vulnerable. I tried to keep it out of sight of shooters and casters, but a succesful magic missile and it could be nearly 300 points dead.
About Ld 10, sometimes it's not benefitial, but I find it has saved me a lot of times from psichology tests.

I may try again a Highborn Alter list, when I finish my currents one cycle.
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