Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

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ArchMagosAlchemys
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by ArchMagosAlchemys »

I know that many of you have good hearts and your suggestions are intended to be helpful, but I wonder if you have ever faced Thorek played by a good player? My opponent is NOT an idiot. He knows what I can do almost as well as I do.

You cannot get in contact with the Anvil because it has a line/block of Warriors or Longbeards or both, blocking access to it. It cannot be reached until you have fought your way through the enemy army. It works pretty much the same as a zombie bunker. AND you have to get there. Any threat can be shot, Anvilled to death, and/or slowed long before it gets to his army, and flyers cannot fly. Fog of Death, like the anvil, has no range limit and does not require LoS.
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by Ninza »

I have played only once against Thorek and I played with VC. I was lucky, because my opponent did "misfire" almost all the time (yeah, 3+ and re-roll ability) and that's why he DID lose. If dwarf player is high skilled and has an average luck, then you have no chances against him (WD, WR and dryads will die to wrath and something)!

So WE sucks against 2K dwarfs IMO
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by PGP »

Hyarion wrote: That just won't work. The Anvil's Ancient Power has no range and doesn't require LoS. Hiding in the opposite table corner only means that you're out of range to attack back.
So it seems, I should sometimes read the rules before commenting...
Hyarion wrote: DivOrb will be a huge waste of points since most people don't use 4+ PD to cast a spell and Dwarves don't cast spells at all. To get a forest close enough to a the Dwarves that you're within the 6" Strangleroot range means you'll probably be blocking LOS from your GG so that they can't shoot at the Dwarves. Your hero set up assumes that the Dwarves don't bring a few Spelleater runes with them to shut down the Treesinging Phase.
I agree that divorb is waste of points, actually I meant deepwood sphere not divorb. Idea was that ancient is somewhat protected when divorb-singer is in the surf-wood. Other singers might be protected by glade guard units. But you are right the wood blocks the LOS, so no surfing against thorek-gunline.
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by PGP »

ArchMagosAlchemys wrote:I know that many of you have good hearts and your suggestions are intended to be helpful, but I wonder if you have ever faced Thorek played by a good player? My opponent is NOT an idiot. He knows what I can do almost as well as I do.
No 'good hearts' to any welf player. It is just right that someone at least smashes them (just the right forum to think like this :D ). I think everyone agrees who has played against treehorde, dragon-treeman or double treeman combos.
ArchMagosAlchemys wrote: You cannot get in contact with the Anvil because it has a line/block of Warriors or Longbeards or both, blocking access to it. It cannot be reached until you have fought your way through the enemy army. It works pretty much the same as a zombie bunker. AND you have to get there. Any threat can be shot, Anvilled to death, and/or slowed long before it gets to his army, and flyers cannot fly. Fog of Death, like the anvil, has no range limit and does not require LoS.
Have you tried the dryadhorde. 25x8 dryads with wraith general and cluster (the cheese of cheeses). Also I was thinking about scouts or orion. Orion with core 5xwild riders(no command)+2x10 GG+2x5 scouts+2xealges+scroll caddy+maybe some treekins (5 unit for lookout sir?) to protect orion or warhawks. You might switch orion to wild rider highborn with netlings+killing blow spear and crystal mere and 2xalters or directly to 3xalters (no highborns). One option might be to drop the infantry and go full cavalry. WR-highborn presented +2xalters(or 3xalters, no highborns)+scroll caddy+5xmusician glade riders+maximum 5xno command wild riders (maybe some banners or warbanner)+2xeagles (you might switch some or all alters to eagle-nobles). But you are fortunately right they probably don't work.
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by unicorn »

ArchMagosAlchemys wrote:I know that many of you have good hearts and your suggestions are intended to be helpful, but I wonder if you have ever faced Thorek played by a good player? My opponent is NOT an idiot. He knows what I can do almost as well as I do.

You cannot get in contact with the Anvil because it has a line/block of Warriors or Longbeards or both, blocking access to it. It cannot be reached until you have fought your way through the enemy army. It works pretty much the same as a zombie bunker. AND you have to get there. Any threat can be shot, Anvilled to death, and/or slowed long before it gets to his army, and flyers cannot fly. Fog of Death, like the anvil, has no range limit and does not require LoS.
I mean that Fast Cavalry thanks to its "free reform" rule (and skirmishers) in situations like this can usually use "1 inch apart" rule to their advantage. If you opponent does not surround Anvil completly at about 1-1,8 inch distance (which because of beeing in corner of table and trying to face all around he usually is not AFAIK), you can rush through this 1 inch line and then stop behind enemy line, facing anywhere you wish. Sometimes you can even charge him at this point, becuase any of your model can see Anvil through this line.

And to your first question. I never play good Thorek, here around we don't use unique characters usually. So maybe even this suggestion is not good, dunno...
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by ArchMagosAlchemys »

PGP.

Cavalry will not work well, they are just as fragile as foot troops by cost twice as much, so the Anvil and Fog will kill them just as easily. Orion cannot join any unit.

Others have to fight this army too; we'll see how they do.

UNICORN

Since the base of a Wild Rider is about 1 inch wide, and you cannot approach a unit closer than 1 inch unless charging that unit, you cannot charge through a gap nearly 3 inches wide. Allso, there are no 'conga lines' in 7th ed, even for fast cavalry.
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by unicorn »

ArchMagosAlchemys wrote:PGP.
Since the base of a Wild Rider is about 1 inch wide, and you cannot approach a unit closer than 1 inch unless charging that unit, you cannot charge through a gap nearly 3 inches wide. Allso, there are no 'conga lines' in 7th ed, even for fast cavalry.
AFAIK you can apporach them, you just cannot stop that colse to them. Whole that "1 inch apart" talks about "movement of troops result". And minimally while charging, you can use 1 inch line for sure, as rules clearly states - while charging, you can come to ANY unit more close (see 66.3 diagram as example).
And BTW cavalry base is 25mm, since 1 inch is 25,4 mm, co you have enough place to go through.

Ah, and final rules argument, with which I can clearly state that youe opponent's army was illegal in terms of rules :D : Most important rule, page 3 of core rule book. First paragraph mainly :thumbsup:
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by ArchMagosAlchemys »

I see that you are correct UNICORN. I may be able to charge through narrow gaps, but it won't be easy because of the 'slowing' effect of any wheels necessay. In practice, there are no such narrow gaps. I can certainly pile into his covering Thunderers, assuming I don't get shot to bits first.
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by unicorn »

Dont forgot "free transform" rule. If you use this rule to its maximal potential, you can be cheesy as hell. Because of the free transform rules, you can legaly "transform" your unit into the line behind ANY of your riders, and then transform it back into charge line... And you can even legaly move your unit to the side by 20mm's! All you need to be avare is your 18 inches movement with every single character. I know this sucks as hell and I am not using it, but in the terms of rules, THIS IS LEGAL.

Ah, and one more "legal" strategy. You can declare charge against any LoS enemy, even if you are definitelly not in the range... Then you will move only by 9 inches, but noone can say anything if you use this move to go through any gasp. Rules for movement are a bit strange at this point, because at failed charge they say you must "move directly towards the intended target as if (you) where charging"; but while charging, there is no need to move "directly" against your enemy. And because this forced "direct" move will be sometimes non-logical (fe if you wish to move around impossible terrain and your direct move will make you move directly into it), I think it can be stated that you can move just "as if you where charging", ie "directly forward with 1 weel which must maximize your "models in base contact potencial", which is clearly none here.
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by Gropah »

unicorn wrote: Ah, and one more "legal" strategy. You can declare charge against any LoS enemy, even if you are definitelly not in the range...
That's actually NOT legal (anymore). It's been FAQ'd, and it's illegal to declare a charge that obviously will fail. I'll see if I can find a linky.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/news/errat ... ammer7.pdf; 3rd page, CHARGING-heading, first question:
Q. Can a unit declare a charge against an enemy that is
obviously out of range (for example if it was deployed 24"
away and has not moved)? This could be useful to get the
unit out of the way of another friendly charging unit…

A. The rules for charging on page 18 state: ‘When you
declare a charge you must do so without measuring the
distance to the target, you must rely on your estimate of
the distance to ensure that your troops can reach their
target’. Emphasis on the ‘ensure’. Therefore, declaring a
charge that you know cannot be completed (like
charging a unit 24" away) is cheating.

EDIT: Linked and pasted.
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by ArchMagosAlchemys »

Thanks GROPAH, I knew that one.

All this Fast Cavalry rushing about is fine, but it won't achieve much. So, I smash into a unit of Warriors or Thunderers. I attack with one model, hitting on 4+, wounding on 4+, saving on 5+, that's 1/6, and the horse hitting on 5+, wounding on 5+, saving on 4+, that's 1/18, a total of 2/9 of a wound. The Dwarfs hit back, hitting on 4+, wounding on 2+, no save, times 3, is 5/4 of a wound; more than five times as effective, 5/8 if fighting with hand weapons, more than two and ahalf times as many casualties.
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by unicorn »

Gropah wrote:
unicorn wrote: Ah, and one more "legal" strategy. You can declare charge against any LoS enemy, even if you are definitelly not in the range...
That's actually NOT legal (anymore). It's been FAQ'd, and it's illegal to declare a charge that obviously will fail. I'll see if I can find a linky.

http://uk.games-workshop.com/news/errat ... ammer7.pdf; 3rd page, CHARGING-heading, first question:
Q. Can a unit declare a charge against an enemy that is
obviously out of range (for example if it was deployed 24"
away and has not moved)? This could be useful to get the
unit out of the way of another friendly charging unit…

A. The rules for charging on page 18 state: ‘When you
declare a charge you must do so without measuring the
distance to the target, you must rely on your estimate of
the distance to ensure that your troops can reach their
target’. Emphasis on the ‘ensure’. Therefore, declaring a
charge that you know cannot be completed (like
charging a unit 24" away) is cheating.

EDIT: Linked and pasted.
Ah, thanx, I dunno that FAQ. But as I stated, I dont use any of this strategies, simpy because I wish to "play for fun" and not "play for win", as Most Important Rule say you must play :D I just know about this possibilities, which are mabye legal (side-surfing with cavalry), nut definitelly stupid and non logical :crazy:
Unicorn's conversions (updated 1st Jun)
Painted
BSB, mounted noble, WD noble, Branchie, Alter, Treeman, 12 WR, 10 WD, 10 GR, 10 WW, 5 Dryads, 5 WhR, 6 Tk, Altar of Khaine
Finished
Treeman, 10 WD, dragon lord, Alter, 9 WhR, 5 GR, DE sin, OK Butcher, Beast heroes x5
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by matthew_swifty »

I massacred Thorek's Dwarves today, the player wasn't skilled with him and I was able to deploy my 8 waywatchers in terrain 12" away from him. First turn, I failed to hurt him. He misfired in the first turn rolling a 1 and a 2. I managed to Killing blow him next turn landing 4 hits on Thorek, rolling a 6, he failed his 4+ ward.

He was VERY unlucky, I was VERY lucky.

The rest of the game was a wipe up with him destroying 12 dryads and 2 wardancers and me wiping out his army by the end of my 6th turn.

I figured out that 3 units of glade guard are surprisingly useful, being able to concentrate massed firepower.

However, I do not think I would have pulled out such a victory if he was well-versed in the arts of Thorek the beardy.
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by ArchMagosAlchemys »

Oh that I could get a shot at him. Of course, there is the T5, 1+ armour save, and 4+ ward to get past too :cry: :cry:
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