Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

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ArchMagosAlchemys
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Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by ArchMagosAlchemys »

I haven't played for a couple of weeks and the only game I can get this weekend is against an 'invincible' Dwarf army; never beaten*. The asterisk is because he has lost a couple of Last Stand games where the opponents had twice as many points, but in 'fair' games he has never lost. He does get a lot of draws though.

His army is a 'standard' Dwarf Gunline anchored by Thorek. Unless the scenario compels him, he will deploy diagonally across one corner of the table, castle up and blast anything that comes in range. I can expect to face magical flaming bolts and balls and anything else he can throw at me. I have never seen him use more than 20 quarrellers; he may have no more models, but he has lots of handgunners and usually two Organ Guns.

Terrain will be random, depending on where in the world we are playing, and the missions will be random too. Only about 1/3 of the missions are pitched battles, so most of the time, I don't get my free wood, however, I have a 10% chance of playing in Athel Loren. He WILL lose if we play there.

I can take a lot of Glade Guard and try to outshoot him at long range and assuming that we get to contest quarters for VP, I am likely to be 200 VP up, or at least even.

What would/should I field?? I can borrow most models, there are other Asrai out there that want their revenge!!!!
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by uruk-hai scout »

If you're playing nasty, you could maybe field Drycha?

If not, Waywatchers might be the way to go - a unit of 5 with 2 hand weapons is more than capable of dealing with an Organ Gun crew. Similarly, fast stuff like Wild Riders, Glade Riders and Warhawk Riders is going to be indispensable.
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by Hyarion »

Yes, you can just deny him anything to shoot at and claim table quarters, but the Anvil will be able to hit the units remaining on the board and gain VP's that way.

Your best bet is to hope you get a scenario that requires movement.
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by ArchMagosAlchemys »

I have since learned that he wants to try a new 'experimental' super-hard list against a 'good' player with a 'good' army; whatever tha means???

At this point level, he needs 300 VP more than me. Assuming that he uses Thorek Ancient every turn, and they all work, he will get 12 x 2d6 S4 hits. That's about 120 hits, and 80 dead elfs, 60 dead Dryads, 11 Dead Treekin That's at least 1000 points of elfs, more if cavalry, much more, 700 points of Dryads or Treekin. Assuming I can get 200 points up from quarters, I then have to kill about 500 - 800 points of his army.

30 glade guard cause about 4 casualties per turn against 5+ save Dwarfs and unless quarrellers, they get no shots back until the enemy move. Allowing for Thorek, I can expect to get a unit and a half worth about 225 points over the course of the game. HoDA will do something and highborn, BoL/AB can certainly accomplish something against expensive warmachines or expensive units and he's proof against Thorek.

Might be time for an all-infantry army with 100 glade guard, killing a 10 man unit of thunderers every turn.
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by Gropah »

Your math on the numbers of hits would seem a bit off.. :)

Also, out of couriousity - what are the special rules for playing in Athel Loren?
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by ArchMagosAlchemys »

You are right Gropah, I was working 3d6! So its only 84 hits, 55 dead elfs, 42 dead Dryads and about 8 Treekin, so 650 points of elves, 500 points of Dryads and Treekin. Makes it a lot better. :D Cavalry still doesn't seem like a good idea.

If we play in Athel Loren, the entire table is covered in forests except for those areas covered by terrain features and a pair of trails connecting opposite table edges and intersecting in the 12" radius central zone. No matter what the scenario, I will not get my free wood in Athel Loren, because there will be nowhere to put it.

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Thorek will massacre cavalry. He gets d3 attacks inflicting 2d6 S4 magical hits. Each attack can expect to wipe out a small unit of cavalry and even if it does not die my movement is halved. Flyrsare worse, they cannot fly at all and out foot movement is SLOW. I think that cavalry and flyers are just 'free' VP for him.

I can be nasty too. Any DoW worth taking?
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by Ninza »

Just take treeman ancient and treeman-->kill that big fat thorek!

You can try DoW cannons. With a good luck you are able to kill thorek (luck, luck and luck)

My oppinion is, that don't ever play against Thorek :)
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by ArchMagosAlchemys »

Thorek will be in the corner of the board and unassailable. The treemen can be slowed by Thorek and flaming, magical, bolts and cannon balls will kill them very fast. I don't think that's a good plan. I'd rather have another 40 archers :D
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by SpeedyGoat »

In 7th edition aren't all scenarios considered pitched battles for the purposes of our free wood?
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by ArchMagosAlchemys »

SPEEDYGOAT

Not where I play and we play 6th edition scenarios too.

The standard scenario at the start of the book is Pitched Battle, which I get to play on 7 or 8 on 2d6, but Last Stand, Battlefield Supremacy, and Flank Attack are not Pitched Battles.

The current method for selecting terrain and scenarios is:

League Scenario Table.

Location (d10)
1. Opponent chooses
2. Realms of Men
3. Wilderness
4. Chaos Wastes
5. Ulthuan & Naggaroth
6. Dwarf Realms
7. Deserts of Khemri or Araby
8. Jungles of Lustria and Southlands
9. Forests of Athel Loren
0. You choose

Use Location Terrain chart to determine the type of terrain pieces, one per 2‘ square of table.

Scenario (2d6)
2. Last Stand
3. Flank Attack:- Central Objective
4. Breakthrough:- + 2 linear obstacles
5. Capture:- Central Objective
6. Battlefield Supremacy
7. Pitched Battle
8. Pitched Battle
9. Meeting Engagement
10. Rear Guard
11. Rally to the Flag
12. Ambush

Roll for Attacker/Defender

And here is the effect of 'wooded' terrain in each location. OK means counts as a wood or forest, no means that it does not.

For:
Lands of Men
Wood - OK

Badlands
Scrub - no

Chaos Wastes
Gnarled wood - OK

Ul-Nag
Deep forest - OK

Dwarf Realms
Pine forest - OK

Deserts of Khemri
Palm grove or scrub - no
Oasis/palm tree - no

Lustria/Southlands
Scrub - no
Dense jungle - no
Tall rainforest - OK
Overgrown temple - no

Athel Loren - Forest
Table - OK ,everything else - no

The forest table is assumed to be covered with forest EXCEPT for the terrain features.

The reason for this is to prevent 'offensive' terrain use and in this it has been very effective. Armies can no longer put long ridges down the table mid-line to protect themselves from enemy shooting, forests and villages cannot be placed to create 'choke-zones' and there are no 'artillery' ridges conveniently placed.

Here's the core of the general-purpose list I'm thinking of using:

Highborn, Alter, Bow of Loren, Arcane Bodkins, Briarsheath, shield. 258
Nobe, Hail of Doom Arrow, great weapon, light armour, shield, Helm of the Hunt 133
Spellsinger, lvl1, scroll, Calaingor's Stave 140
Spellsinger, lvl1, scroll, Deepwood Sphere 140

6 x 10 Glade Guard 720
4 x 8 Dryads 384

That totals to 1765.

What should I do with the rest? This is to b a list that I would field against other armies which is why I have the Spellsingers.
Last edited by ArchMagosAlchemys on 26 Oct 2007, 01:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by SpeedyGoat »

If you play in the forests of Athel Loren would the deepwood sphere hit all models not on those terrain features?
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by ArchMagosAlchemys »

Yes, but the forest will be broken into some pieces, usually 5 - 8. Even so it can be brutal. I fought many Nemesis battles in the Great forest using similar rules and won a lot of victories.
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by unicorn »

I think about how hard it will be to shoot this anvil down with GGs...

Statistically:
At long range, 1/2 of your arrows will hit
All hits are proportionally divide between all models (2x guard, Kragi, Thorek)

guards: 1/3 hits go through T, then 1/3 through AS, they have 1W
Kragi: 1/3 hits go through T, then 2/3 through AS, he have 1W
Thorek: 1/6 hits go through T, then 1/6 through AS, he have 3 W

This means:
guards
- every hit have 11,1 % chance to kill (ie 9 hits for kill)
- you need to fire 2x18=36 arrows to kill both guards

Kragi
- every hit have 22,2 % chance to kill (ie 4,5 hits for kill)
- you need to fire 9 arrows to kill Kragi

Thorek
- every hit have 2,8 % chance to wound (ie 35,7 hits for 1 wound)
- you need to fire 3x71,4=214,2 arrows to kill Thorek

This means, you need to fire about 214+9+36=259 arrows to Anvil to kill it's crew. In 6 rounds of battle, you must fire average 43-44 arrows every turn on Anvil to claim VPs... Statistically. :eek:

Dunno how will possible shooty army work here :(
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by Ninza »

Are you playing only against dwarfs?
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by ArchMagosAlchemys »

UNICORN

I won't be able to shoot at the anvil at all. It will be out of LoS. I plan to shoot down his Dwarfs and Warmachines and capture/contest quarters If I can capture two quarters, contest the other two and kill 100 points more of him than he doea of me, I get a Minor Victory..

NINZA

This particular battle is against Dwarfs. I play against many other enemies.

I'm still looking for ideas on how to fill out the rest of the army and any changes you suggest.
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by ArchMagosAlchemys »

I'm thinking of following riverstone's ideas and going with a 3 Alter army.

Spellweaver, lvl4, 2 scrolls, Deepwood Sphere, Shrikes:- 350
Alter Noble, great weapon, light armour, shield, Helm of the Hunt:- 128
Alter Noble, great weapon, Briarsheath, shield, Hail of Doom Arrow:- 151
Alter Noble, geat weapon, light armour, Enchanted Shield:- 116

6 x 10 Glade Guard:- 720
4 x 8 Dryads:- 384

2 x 3, 1 x 4 Treekin:- 650

Total 2499 Points.

The three Alters, supported by the Dryads and Treekin give a serious close combat threat and my Glade Guard can shoot down about 75 points of Dwarfs each turn from outside handgun range. The army has been chosen to give Thorek no source of cheap VP. He can kill Elves at 12 points a pop, or try for the harder Dryads and Treekin. The Alters are Thorek-proof and hope that the can hack their way through their weight of warmachines and units.

Using the Swedish Composition system this comes out at 11.35. Not great, but a heck of a lot better than I usually get, and if I dumped a Treekin and gave a couple of banners to the Glade Guard, my composition would be 16.35, which is very respectable.

Any suggestions. I fight in about 15 hours.
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by ArchMagosAlchemys »

Bump.

I'm out in a couple of hours. What are my chances?
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by ArchMagosAlchemys »

Well I found out what 'experimental' meant. By the Swedish Composition posted by Nagathi, I think the army had a composition of -32 (Yes, that's MINUS THIRTY TWO) I may have not have it quite right, but it's at least -30.

The 'twist' was two level 4 mages, Dark Emissaries, as well as the Anvil and natural Dawi anti-magic. With 11 dispel dice I couldn't get a thing off. What's worse, he had a killler spell that inflicted d6 s3 hits on EVERY unit twice every turn I could not stop it. Aside from the widespread destruction it caused, it gave me a difficult choice; keep my characters out of other units and suffer the hits from the spells, or have them join units and then become vulnerable to the Anvil.

My shooting plan thus failed because my Glade Guard died much faster than I expected; losing the extra 2d6 S3 hits on EVERY UNIT!!!! made all the difference.

Two of the three alters were dead by the end of the second turn, and I had only oe wound left on the Spellweaver. Once she died, I could do nothing to stop the onslaught.
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by Hyarion »

Ouch. Just ouch.

Hearing about your recent struggles with the Anvil of Doom, Lord Kroak, and Anvil+Dark Emmisaries, part of me wants to urge you to find a new crew of people to play with, (or at the very least, refuse to play this guy).

In any case, it's guys like that who suck the fun out of the game and I'm sorry to hear that he pulled a stunt like this on you.
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by ArchMagosAlchemys »

That which does not kill us makes us stronger.

I have a lot of people about who bear 'grudges' against my VC and now that 7th is out have some new tricks to try. Most of them think Asrai unbelievably cheesy and deserve anything they get.
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by unicorn »

Dunno how rules you use for usage of Dark Emissaries / truthsyers, but that I know (from Dark Shadow campaign) are that
1) both players must agree to use Dark Emissaries / Truthsyers
2) you can use maximally one Dark Emissari / Truthsyer in a battle
3) if one player deploy Dark Emissar, othere must depoly Truthsyer

Dunno, maybe (probably) you have another rules, but from how we play it, your game does not fit even single rule from this 3 :(
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by PGP »

ArchMagosAlchemys wrote:Thorek will be in the corner of the board and unassailable. The treemen can be slowed by Thorek and flaming, magical, bolts and cannon balls will kill them very fast. I don't think that's a good plan. I'd rather have another 40 archers :D
Best tactic against thorek and two organs is just to take draw. If he deploys all units to one side of table, put your forces to other side of table (or somewhere where there are no LOS) and wait six turns. After six turns say thanks for a great game. Take your tournee points from some other player.

Have you thought about using the woodsurfing ancient tactic. Ancient with netlings and cluster+lvl2 singer with orb and scroll+lvl 2singer with stave and scroll+lvl2 singer with scroll and ranu's heartstone. Put all chars to forest (no LOS)and get close to warrior-line and blast the blocks with root-attack of ancient. Combine that with huge amount of glade guard.
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by Hyarion »

PGP wrote:
Best tactic against thorek and two organs is just to take draw. If he deploys all units to one side of table, put your forces to other side of table (or somewhere where there are no LOS) and wait six turns. After six turns say thanks for a great game. Take your tournee points from some other player.
That just won't work. The Anvil's Ancient Power has no range and doesn't require LoS. Hiding in the opposite table corner only means that you're out of range to attack back.

Have you thought about using the woodsurfing ancient tactic. Ancient with netlings and cluster+lvl2 singer with orb and scroll+lvl 2singer with stave and scroll+lvl2 singer with scroll and ranu's heartstone. Put all chars to forest (no LOS)and get close to warrior-line and blast the blocks with root-attack of ancient. Combine that with huge amount of glade guard.
DivOrb will be a huge waste of points since most people don't use 4+ PD to cast a spell and Dwarves don't cast spells at all. To get a forest close enough to a the Dwarves that you're within the 6" Strangleroot range means you'll probably be blocking LOS from your GG so that they can't shoot at the Dwarves. Your hero set up assumes that the Dwarves don't bring a few Spelleater runes with them to shut down the Treesinging Phase.
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by ArchMagosAlchemys »

For those of you that hav never faced Thorek, he can reliably kill 500 - 800 points of army in a single six turn game and with no range or LoS limits, you cannot hide. ur MSU army is especially vulnerable. When combined with our comparatively expensive models, this makes things worse. A single attack by the Anvil can wipe out any 6 model unit of Glade Riders, Wardancers, Waywatcher, or Wild Riders.
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Re: Want 2500 points against Thorek Dwarfs

Post by unicorn »

ArchMagosAlchemys wrote:For those of you that hav never faced Thorek, he can reliably kill 500 - 800 points of army in a single six turn game and with no range or LoS limits, you cannot hide. ur MSU army is especially vulnerable. When combined with our comparatively expensive models, this makes things worse. A single attack by the Anvil can wipe out any 6 model unit of Glade Riders, Wardancers, Waywatcher, or Wild Riders.
What about to stop anvil easily by some WR or flying unit or WW attack? Since your 2nd turn (in worst scenario I think 3er), anvil will be silenced. You will loose some models while fighting Thorek, but it will be much less that 800 pts he will take you with anvil.
The same goes for both emmisaries.

When in CC, I beliave nor emmisars nor anvil can cast. When in CC, you cannot be targeted by fiering units, as well as organ guns cannot nominate you as target too. I think this simple strategy maybe can work against this :crazy:
Unicorn's conversions (updated 1st Jun)
Painted
BSB, mounted noble, WD noble, Branchie, Alter, Treeman, 12 WR, 10 WD, 10 GR, 10 WW, 5 Dryads, 5 WhR, 6 Tk, Altar of Khaine
Finished
Treeman, 10 WD, dragon lord, Alter, 9 WhR, 5 GR, DE sin, OK Butcher, Beast heroes x5
Locked