Defying convention

[Tethlis]

Here at Asrai.org, there are a lot of things that we consider to be safe choices. Many of the armylists we post are very similar, using unit or hero configurations that are "typical" for the website. 95% of my interaction with other Wood Elf players is through this website, with only a bit of interaction with other Wood Elf players I meet in person. Since the forum only represents a percentage of all the Wood Elf players in existence, I wonder what common army designs are for other people. When you see other Wood Elf armies, do they usually look similar to the Asrai.org list style, or different?

For example, we all like the "standard" Alter: great weapon, Helm of the Hunt, Hail of Doom Arrow, light armor, shield. We like him so much, and he's so popular, we even call him the "standard" Alter. Another popular choice is the Sniper Noble with Hunter's Talon/Pageant of Shrikes. Have you seen many other uses for an Alter Noble?

Also, Asrai.org lists frequently have small size units: 8 Dryads, 10 Glade Guard, 5-6 Fast Cavalry. Is it common to see Wood Elf players use larger units?

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

I've never seen a Sniper noble, and the Alters do not always have HoDA, which is on another 'stand-off' Noble. surprisingly often they carry the illegal Enchanted Shield. Often Dryads and Glade Gaurds are 12s and Glade Riders are 8s. I see 10 Wardancers too.

But that's common in other armies. Painting up a box of troops as one unit is quite common. Later today I face an Empire army with two units of 8 knights because that's what came in the box.

My experience with tournament players, however, is that their unit-sizes and equipment choices are very similar to ours.

[peterhof]

where I play everyone is just shocked I use a such expensive lord type as a WD lord in my army, till they meet him in CC

[Spaar]

I've seen only 2 other Wood Elf players around where I play. The first is somebody who just plays for fun against his twin brother (don't ask me why they don't play other people at the store), and he had a lot of flyers in his army.

The second plays with an Orion/Wild Rider list, and I think it's a pure Forest Spirit army.

If it helps at all, I haven't used the Alter Noble yet. I used to use a 12 strong dryad unit w/ champion back when I would only take 1 of them, and I made the mistake of modeling full command on my Glade guard (I ended up ripping off the musician and standard arms later).

I've also run a unit of 8 Glade Riders with Full command and a mounted Lord w/ Bow of Loren before, and they've actually done suprisingly well. They'll get on the flanks of a ranked up unit, do their free reform, shoot with a whole bunch of bow shots. If the unit turns to face them, I'll go to the flank of the unit again (this time behind his lines), and now that there are more troops coming from my side of the board, they don't dare turn to face again (they would expose their back), and so the unit usually ends up charged in the flank by two different units. I'm sure Wild Riders would also be effective at this, but it's nice to shoot at targets (with 9 shots) while setting up the double flank attack.

While I did come up with some effective units/tactics on my own, the forums helped me to see what I was doing wrong with some of my units, and I've improved a lot since those days. My list is still very different from a lot of people's, luckily, and I get told that it's not going to work out for me (to which I can say that I have more wins than losses and draws combined), so while the "standard" units that everybody takes are very effective, it is very possible to make completely different successful lists. The trick is that you have to take units that compliment each other.

I think the perfect list to demonstrate this would be the Greek Phalanx army that King Leonidas created. If you're not familiar with it, it was a list that had a block of 70 eternal guard, a block of 30 eternal guard, 13 Glade Guard, and 2 groups of 6 Wild Riders. He backed these up with a BSB w/ Standard of Ariel, a Highborn w/ Rhymer's Harp, and a basic Noble. That list is COMPLETELY unorthodox by Asrai.org standards (you can even search for the thread and read people's doubts about the army), and yet he gets a lot of success with it. So that has motivated me to look for other combos that I could use that other people haven't thought of.

I think I rambled, but I hope that I stayed on topic and it made sense...

-Spaar

[matthew_swifty]

A new wood elf player who moved out of our area came back with his army, he used a noble with the bow of loren and 12 dryads and 8 glade riders. He also used a level 4 weaver against a khorne mortal army with no magic to back it up. He was slaughtered, mostly due to the large unit size his army was made up of but the Khorne player is a cheesemonger with a massively destructive dragon and khorne chosen knights and knights to back it up. It should be easy enough to beat with a Wood Elf army but the other player lost massively whereas I massacred him. I believe that the asrai.org way is probably the best way.

[Khan]

It is interesting now that you mention it, but I have never seen another Wood Elf army or player in person. It isn't that I just haven't played against another Wood Elf army, I haven't even seen another one at the same tournament.

[Hyarion]

I've encountered a few other Wood Elf players at my local shop and have pointed them all in the direction of this site (Sethayla, Lord Vulkan, CouncilOfEight). Prior to them joining the site, I played a few games against them, they were using very "unstandard" lists and each game was a massacre, part of that is no doubt because they were new to Wood Elves as a whole but the ineffiency of the units definitely played a large part in it as well.

[Tethlis]

I've encountered a few other Wood Elf players at my local shop and have pointed them all in the direction of this site (Sethayla, Lord Vulkan, CouncilOfEight). Prior to them joining the site, I played a few games against them, they were using very "unstandard" lists and each game was a massacre, part of that is no doubt because they were new to Wood Elves as a whole but the ineffiency of the units definitely played a large part in it as well.

I've come across many players who are "starting" Wood Elves as a secondary or tertiary army. Some are using the familiar formulas, which was (to my knowledge) pioneered by Joe Sturge and has quickly become popular on this site. Others are using the Games Workshop-brand of Wood Elves, with 8 fast cavalry, 12 Dryads, etc.

Just yesterday, I went up against a young player who owned Lizardmen, and had just purchased the battalion box. He asked for a game, and I agreed. He told me about how he was interested in Wood Elves, because he wanted to play a "shooty army". He also mentioned that he wasn't looking forward to fighting me, because I would simply "run around and shoot him, since Wood Elves suck in close combat." He was quite surprised when my Ancient steamrolled his Carnosaur Oldblood, and when my Alter/Wild Riders/Ancient/Wardancers got off some combined charges...

It's interesting to see how many players view Wood Elves, versus how Wood Elves actually are.

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

A fair few players will face my VC, but don't want to play WE because they 'cannot win' and 'it won't be any fun'. Such is the nature of asymmetric warfare.

[Spaar]

I've come across many players who are "starting" Wood Elves as a secondary or tertiary army. Some are using the familiar formulas, which was (to my knowledge) pioneered by Joe Sturge and has quickly become popular on this site. Others are using the Games Workshop-brand of Wood Elves, with 8 fast cavalry, 12 Dryads, etc.

Just yesterday, I went up against a young player who owned Lizardmen, and had just purchased the battalion box. He asked for a game, and I agreed. He told me about how he was interested in Wood Elves, because he wanted to play a "shooty army". He also mentioned that he wasn't looking forward to fighting me, because I would simply "run around and shoot him, since Wood Elves suck in close combat." He was quite surprised when my Ancient steamrolled his Carnosaur Oldblood, and when my Alter/Wild Riders/Ancient/Wardancers got off some combined charges...

It's interesting to see how many players view Wood Elves, versus how Wood Elves actually are.

One thing that I really like about Wood Elves is that you can make so many different kinds of army lists that have a unique play style. You can get very good Close Combat army lists, excellent shooty lists, very manuverable army lists, magic heavy armies, flying lists, psychology lists, etc...

It's really one of the few armies that allows for so much variety and gives success, unlike Brettonian lists which are almost always the exact same.

I will say that one of the reasons that the "standard" WE army list is so popular is because it is definately one of the most effective and probably the easiest to master out of all the options.

-Spaar

P.S.- A lizardman called us shooty? The skink horde has to be one of the shootiest armies I've seen...

[Khan]

A fair few players will face my VC, but don't want to play WE because they 'cannot win' and 'it won't be any fun'. Such is the nature of asymmetric warfare.

I've never met a player who refused to play my Wood Elves. Perhaps I just have some cocky friends, but not a single person has ever admitted defeat in a game based simply on the army or list they were facing. There are times when we recognize that a game will be a tough one, but we never just give up. That attitude you've described isn't something I've found to be characteristic of good players.

[KidA]

surprisingly often they carry the illegal Enchanted Shield.

Illegal? What do you mean by that?

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

They have both Helm of the Hunt and the Enchanted Shield. I've seen three or four newbie Alters equipped that way. Sorry I wasn't more specific in the first place, but I was responding in a hurry.

[Mist Walker]

There's a wood elf player who just started in my local store, he fields two blocks of 20 eternal guard but I don't think he uses a bsb. His units are quite a bit bigger than mine and most of the stuff has full com.

He took it to heat 1 of gt-he didn't do well-I won't be specific

[peterhof]

I think the power of the WE army list that is balanced gives us a nice amount of versality in combat, shooting and magic phase and as allways a bonus in movement phase. But most new players don't seem to get that

[MortenLarsen]

I think the power of the WE army list that is balanced gives us a nice amount of versality in combat, shooting and magic phase and as allways a bonus in movement phase. Bujt most new players don't seem to get that

Well, Asrai really aren't a newbie army. Some say its extreamly overpowered but that only goes for expirienced players, and then again not... You need to get all of the bonusses of WE to combine for any of it to work. Very few of our units/characters can work seperately, and some people just don't get that before they've been massacared a trizillion-times...

[Hyarion]

I agree. Wood Elves as an army tends to draw a high caliber of player who understands the tactical importance of the movement phase, how to use different units to support each other, the viability of playing points denial, etc. All of those features are critical to success with the Asrai.

As a result, some players do very well with the army, and enjoy the flexibility they have and the high degree of challenge provided by the Wood Elves. Others, however, who perhaps don't quite grasp all of the above concepts or who make a mistake in a game (misjudging a charge), or who just get cursed by dice tend to do rather poorly with the army. Interestingly, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of middle ground.

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

A reasonable number of players, both newbies and more experienced, would rather face my Vampires than Asrai. It's 'hard' to play against Asrai and they want 'fun'. They want a 'staight-up fight' type game, not careful maneuver and combined operations to defend against 'the smoke and mirrors' style of the Asrai way of war.

Other players don't want to face gunlines either.

I can see a lot of merit in Nagathi's Swedish-style composition calculation, not to to limit excess, but to help players know when armies are fairly evenly matched.

The armies I have used recently are in the -6 to +6 range and my opponents need to be aware of that.

[Lord Vulkan]

I do not often see larger squad numbers for wood elves. Excepts my own army. I use 14 Dryads.
Because I don't have enough for 2 squads.

[Victorianbelle]

I know of 2 Wood Elf players (including Myself) among the local gaming group, and we tend to do quite a few different "Norms".

Normally in 2k games, lists will always vary, but a few things that normally make it it are:

- 3 units of 10 glade guard - yes, thats 30 archers in 2,000 points (or 2 units of 12). Dwarves, Orcs, Brettonians, Cavalry HE, you name it, our archers have always done Amazing things in our games. They are often left alone for the need to quell larger threats, but this means that by turn 3, 4 or 5, most of their shots are hitting with str4 on 3's. They are also Banked points that you can easily deny or sacrifice depending on the situation. The Best and most Undermined units we have IMHO. Too many people think of them pen and paper wise, or what happened in these 4 or 5 games, rather than on the whole. They obviously aren't going to be making or breaking combats, but they play their role very well in the hands of someone who knows how to use them.

- HODA on a Spellsinger - often not expected by an enemy who gets a little too close for comfort, and allows your other characters to widen their magic item choice.

- Spellweavers given CC deffensive magic items. Used properly with certain magic (Beast), or just playing style/goading, it is very simple to make a Very Resiliant character who can effectively manhandle powerful characters' attacks and lighten the load on your unit or BSB

- Noble on Eagle - people tend to go for one extreme with these -either they will ignore it (much to your benefit), or they will throw everything they can at it. At a little over 130 w/o magic items... let them. It means that your other units can more effectively place themselves to win the game.


***Also of Note, When you were talking about players not wanting to fight against your Wood Elves (but against your Undead), I have found the opposite. Usually No-Body wants to fight my Undead, and much would prefer fighting Wood Elves.

It's my belief that A Good Vampire Count General, behind a balanced force is the biggest threats in WHFB, and one of the most hellish nuts to crack currently, (Barring a freak General Kill by a direct shot of artillery on the 1st turn or squeezed with 1 Goblin Waagh spell with Irrisistable Force). Most WE armies shouldn't have trouble dispatching 90% of VC players... but there a few individuals who can get the most out of that list and use every inch of it to drawing opponents into a sure victory, and turning the tables completely, never actually losing control of the tide for a moment. Against the new HE, this is no longer true mind you, but the Undead will have their own update in the coming months.

Wood Elves are quite fun to play against IMHO, but non-willing opponents often tend to go about fighting them in the wrong ways, by focusing on fighting the same aspects as another rank and file army. When they see that this is a inappropriate way to adapt the fighting, they get angry at the army, rather than try and change their tacticts to meet the rising challenge.

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

Belle. My point was that the combat against VC is much less asymmetrical and when my opponents lose, which they do very often, they feel that they had a chance to win 'if only'. Against WE, when they lose, they often feel that the 'had no chance' A 285 point Treeman is a cheesy invincible monster and Dryads are just broken, combt monster Vampire mages and Ghouls are OK ????? (Don't ask me why)

I loaned my Vampires to another player for Nemesis and I lost more of them than against any other race, although I won plenty too.

[Khan]

Have you tried discussing the game with your opponents afterward? That's something we always do and it is a huge help, especially with new players. Going over the game and what each player could have done differently in order to achieve a better result is probably one of the best things you can do for someone who is struggling against your army. If that doesn't work out you could always offer to switch armies so they can learn a bit more about the list and find out what its weaknesses are as well as how best to attack their own army. I've found that a surprisingly large number of people aren't even aware of the biggest threats to their own army.

Perhaps you could frame it as helping your local gaming group learn to win against Wood Elves. Spend a few weeks letting people use your army and then talk about the game after. Help them figure out how the army works.

[ArchMagosAlchemys]

I'm plenty generous against newbies, but when I get a game its usually against a WAACy tailored anti-asrai list. I'm not helping them.

Again, I seem not to have explained myself properly. Many opponents don't WANT to learn how to fight Asrai. They want to play 'SmashmouthHammer'; most Asri armies don't do that. They have 'mastered' the tactics for their army, and expect them to work all the time. The Asrai are different in this way.

[Dracos]

I have 2 opponents in our gaming community that also play Wood Elves. The first is just getting his Forest Spirit army in shape but it is a true Forest Spirit army with not one "panzy treehugger" in the force. I keep trying to convince him on the need to balance the list but this is truely an opponent who plays for the enjoyment of the game. Best sport I've ever played against in anything and takes losses as well as he accepts wins.

The other is a young man who normally plays Khorne. After watching my army in the latest RTT he asked what was a good way to start. I suggested a couple of Battalion boxes as the core of a balanced list. He seems to be naturally gravitating to Asur MSU style. So he's either copying mine (did mention he's a smart kid ) or he's ghosting We'll see as he advances past the Warband level with his army. If he goes for 3 units of Glade Guard then I'm guessing he might be copying me as I don't often see a 3 GG unit army list suggested here (until the HE's come out I guess ). I honestly hope he goes for more Dryads and Wardancers because it fits his playing style better.

I took my Chaos Mortals against him and was finally on the recieving end of Wood Elf mobility I eventually just had to release my characters in order to hunt down his Dryads and Wardancers (man now that was a fight). I also got lucky that the Marauders actually beat the Dryads (made the mistake of flank charging with Glade Riders - even when I warned against it) and over ran into his General.

I finally learned why my friends always seem more relaxed going against my Mortals - our Elves are so mobile they become quite frustrating trying to get to grips with - too bad

[nagualhost]

since we are on the subject of defying convention, I am happy to hear people talking about taking three units of glade guard. I've been dropping hints about that recently on the forum and have not gotten encouraging responses. most people seem to think that I should drop one unit and take Glade Riders. I can't imagine why I would do that. m9 does nothing to replace 10 st4 shots at short range. my bowline does nasty things to opponents in two rounds of shooting, combined with the HoDA, and it forces them to come to me, said spider to fly Scouts and Great Eagles can bait and march block just as well and are cheaper than GR, and 5WW are the same price and can do much better.

30 archers = rain of death