1000-2000p list vs skaven

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nated4444
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1000-2000p list vs skaven

Post by nated4444 »

My dad plays skaven and i want to win he only plays 1k 1.5k and 2k games vs me and i want to really win but not necessarily by a lot so i want ya'll to revise my list
1k
Lords
Spell Weaver lvl 4 bare 250 p
Heroes
Noble BSB LA HoDA aseindi's bane 132p
Core
13 Glade Guard musician 162
10 Glade Guard musician
Special
5 wardancers
6 Warhawk riders
plan: weaver and VSB go into 13 GG Hoda gets rid of any really bad stuff with 30 other arows flying at it wardances re direct with 4++ ward dance and maybe get a few casualties
1.5k
Lords
Highborn LA arcane bodkins Shield of Ptlos The bow of Loren tailsman of protection 248 p
Heroes
Noble BSB LA HoDA aseindi's bane 132p
Core
13 Glade Guard musician SB BoEF 184p
2x 10 Glade Guard musician SB 138p (each)
2x Glade Guard Scouts musician 91p (each)
Special
6 Wardancers Blade singer
Rare
2x Great eagles 50 (each)
2x 5 Waywatchers Shadow Sentinal 128 (each)
plan: GE chaff and provoke him into a mistake with the 4 units i have for that
2k
Lords
Spell weaver lvl 4 wand of wych elm glamour weave Elven steed 353p
Heroes
Noble BSB Elven Steed armour of destiney 152p
Noble LA HoDA Charmed sheild elven steed GW 128p
Core
2x 10 Glade Riders musician 249 (each)
7 Glade Riders
Special
3x 3 Warhawk riders 120 (each)
Rare
2x Great eagles 50p (each)
2x 5 Waywatcers 120p (each)
plan: move and shoot hoping he'll never be in range of his slings (18") and taking everything else out with concentrated fire/ if WM WW
thanks for looking all constructive criticism is very welcome
Ioreth Starmantle wrote: Hmm, the Asur never leave home without the Book of Hoeth, the Druchii love their Tome of Furion. We now have one that suits us very nicely(book of asur). Time to start an Elf book club (that means we club each other with books).
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Re: 1000-2000p list vs skaven

Post by Drstrangelove »

Hi man,
Great that you want to beat the old man!
There are some things to bear in mind against skaven
-they have little armour and nothing worth lethal shotting: leave the way watchers and bow of Loren/arcane bodkins highborn at home
-you need a lot of glade guard for them to be effective as skaven units are so big. So I'd probably either take 20 or 50, but not somewhere in between.
-war dancers are great: suicide them into his general/bsb unit, use the killing blow dance and watch his battle line fall apart without them!
-warhawk riders are pretty rubbish against almost everything. Can you use one as an eagle mounted noble instead?
-trees are amazing: dryads do a stack of damage and cause fear; treekin and treeman just munch infantry for fun (just watch out for doom wheels and warp lightning cannons!).

Any idea what list you can expect to face?
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Re: 1000-2000p list vs skaven

Post by Sidewinder »

What is is your dad's 1k, 1.5, and 2k army lists? Is it just your dad that you play? If so, you should try to expand your player base. Get a friend or two started so that you can gain a broader gaming experience.
nated4444 wrote: 1k
Lords
Spell Weaver lvl 4 bare 250 p (Need to give the mage a dispel scroll. Just realized you can't because of point restrictions. So, it would be better to drop the Spellweaver. It's too dangerous having that many points with one model that has T3, no ward save, and no armor save in a 1k game. You could replace it with a Spellsinger that has Ruby Ring of Rhuin and a Dispel Scroll.)
Heroes
Noble BSB LA HoDA aseindi's bane 132p
Core
13 Glade Guard musician 162 (Need a standard bearer in case you roll Blood & Glory.)
10 Glade Guard musician
Special
5 wardancers
6 Warhawk riders
plan: weaver and VSB go into 13 GG Hoda gets rid of any really bad stuff with 30 other arows flying at it wardances re direct with 4++ ward dance and maybe get a few casualties (I don't place the general and BSB in the same unit. That would be too many points lost if that unit gets decimated.)

1.5k
Lords
Highborn LA arcane bodkins Shield of Ptlos The bow of Loren tailsman of protection 248 p (General consensus is that this build is not worth the points, especially if your not going against heavily armored troops or cavalry. At 1.5k, this is where you bring in a Spellweaver.)
Heroes
Noble BSB LA HoDA aseindi's bane 132p
Core
13 Glade Guard musician SB BoEF 184p
2x 10 Glade Guard musician SB 138p (each) (You only need one of these 2 GG units to have a SB. Your better off with another archer. Your army will already have three standard bearers and that should do.)
2x Glade Guard Scouts musician 91p (each)
Special
6 Wardancers Blade singer (Don't pay for the champion upgrade unless you are planning on using the Wardancers as a bunker. Champion upgrades are generally not worth the points for WE.)
Rare
2x Great eagles 50 (each)
2x 5 Waywatchers Shadow Sentinal 128 (each) (Again, drop the champ upgrade and add one Waywatcher. Waywatchers are better in units of six.)
These are the suggestions I have. I hope they help.
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Re: 1000-2000p list vs skaven

Post by Sidewinder »

Oh, also, use your Waywatchers to charge and go into hand-to-hand combat against your dad's Warplock Jezzails, Warp Lightening Cannon, and Plagueclaw Catapult teams. The Skaven crew members are not going to be able to stand up to twelve WS5 attacks.

Also remember that all Skaven shooting weapons are considered magical because they use warpstone. This means your Forest Spirit models does not benefit from their ward save from Skaven shooting attacks.
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nated4444
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Re: 1000-2000p list vs skaven

Post by nated4444 »

@ Drstrangelove
1 at 1500 and greater i am probibly going to see a grey(great?) seer and i don't want him using warp lightning too fast so i want his magicians dead ASAP
2 in my lists the number of shots is as follows
1 30
1.55
2 49
so all but the first is going up to borderline high shooting which i will fix
3 war hawks are great redirecters see below and they can move 20 and shoot which imo is gold
godswearhats wrote:Don't write off Warhawk Riders.

5 GR (min unit size) == 3 WHR (min unit size) in terms of points. So for a direct comparison:

Both have same Toughness and Armour Save and are Fast Cavalry.
WHR can fly, so move 20 and can't be redirected or engaged if they don't want to be.
WHR are skirmishers so are at -1 to be shot at vs GR.
WHR have 6 wounds vs 5 on GR.
WHR have 6 attacks in close combat, plus 3 stomps, vs 5 attacks from GR.
WHR continue to have 3 S4 attacks and 3S4 stomps not on the charge, whereas GR are S3 when not on the charge.
WHR hit-and-run rule means they never get pursued and wiped out due to static combat resolution.
WHR are Monstrous Cavalry and thus are immune to Killing Blow.
GR get 5 shots vs WHR 3 shots.
GR can bunker characters vs WHR who cannot.
GR can take a banner if needed for scenarios.
GR can round out Core points if needed.

If you are spending that many points on a Warmachine hunting, harassing, redirecting unit, Warhawk Riders are actually a better choice than Glade Riders.
4 i like little elf lists and not tree smashy lists i'll edit this for sidewinder after school (maybe :roll: )
Ioreth Starmantle wrote: Hmm, the Asur never leave home without the Book of Hoeth, the Druchii love their Tome of Furion. We now have one that suits us very nicely(book of asur). Time to start an Elf book club (that means we club each other with books).
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Re: 1000-2000p list vs skaven

Post by Drstrangelove »

Godswearhats comments were assuming that you are already taking 2 eagles, as they are far better than warhawks. Hence the comparison to glade riders.
120 points is a very expensive redirector, and paying 120 points for 3 S3 bow shots is possibility the biggest rip off in warhammer.
There are situations where they might be useful, but I don't think you'll find them useful against skaven. Too much easy access to magic missiles and skirmishing shooters, they will get shot off very quickly.

If you prefer to go elf heavy that's great. But you will lose to any skaven player packing a good list. Skaven hordes are the worst march up for shooting-type elf armies that there is. Our way out of this is trees, but if you don't want to use the tools at our disposal that is going to give you an uphill battle.

I'm a little bit confused: if you are already dead set on playing the list you have, then why did you ask for feedback?
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nated4444
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Re: 1000-2000p list vs skaven

Post by nated4444 »

i see your point in the 1k list but not in the other 2 and for the arguements i like making sure the purpose is clear for each army on my use and tactics againt the skaven and i will be taking all opinions into account when i write up revisions
2 i dislike trees as i like the shooty elf theme and own a army of mostrously good CC daemons which is like
BloodThirster
2x hearld of k greater locus
2x 30 bl of k
6 Blood crushers
so i like that army but it needs contrast
thanks for responding
nated4444
Ioreth Starmantle wrote: Hmm, the Asur never leave home without the Book of Hoeth, the Druchii love their Tome of Furion. We now have one that suits us very nicely(book of asur). Time to start an Elf book club (that means we club each other with books).
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Re: 1000-2000p list vs skaven

Post by Saniles »

I'm probably going to use my old wood elves as my secondary army when they redo the rulebook. I've been out of the wood elf game a long time... But having said that I now play skaven. These guys are absolutely right about the lack or armor man. Don't bother with fancy bows if you can sacrifice the one fancy bow for a bunch more regular ones. Having said that... If your dad is using slings, which I think you indicated or someone did, on anything other than gutter runners he is wasting points and giving you and advantage with the waste.

Get something quick that can get on top of the warp lightning cannons as soon as you can even if you lose the unit doing it, it is 100% worth it. Depending on how your pop plays... I've put grey seers in 1k point armies simply got the dreaded 13th, so make sure you are packing a dispel scroll. One time suffering the 13th is one time to many especially if he takes out the whole unit... Say hello to a unit of clanrats right in your lines. If you can get flaming attacks with a spell list then have that handy for the HPA. I mean honestly the skaven have lots of options which is one reason I like them a lot. If you have any questions man... I'd be happy to give my best advice for whatever that's worth.
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Re: 1000-2000p list vs skaven

Post by Sidewinder »

nated4444 wrote: ...i like little elf lists and not tree smashy lists...
I felt similar when I first started WE in the aspect that I did not want to use Treemen. To me, it didn't make sense that Treemen would join in a battle with Wood Elves whenever WE had the whim.
It wasn't until I started reading into the fluff and interpreting it that the Wood Elves do not command Treemen, Dryads, Spites, etc. The Forest is quite aware exactly when it is being invaded and puts into the Wood Elves a burning desire to be at a certain place at a certain time. Through experience the Wood Elves know to take weapons, armor, etc. with them. Just prior to a battle Wood Elves are neither expecting others, nor are surprised if others arrive. They might feel a bit apprehensive about what happens after the battle.

I no longer think of Wood Elves as the self-appointed "protectors of the forest". I've never accepted the "tree-hugging" interpretation. They are simply inhabitants of the forest that answers to the Forest's demands. Drycha would of course think of the elves as a parasitic infection that requires elimination. To paraphrase a poster on another site, "The Wood Elves army book is actually a book of two armies."
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Re: 1000-2000p list vs skaven

Post by nated4444 »

ok i still have a couple of questions
1 is bow of loren a good idea (no arcane bodkins but maybe starfire arrows)
2 will WW be able to take out a WLC
3 in 1500 when treemen are avalable will it be hard for them not to get shot down
4 are dryads good vs skaven with all their magical attacks
thanks for the replies
Ioreth Starmantle wrote: Hmm, the Asur never leave home without the Book of Hoeth, the Druchii love their Tome of Furion. We now have one that suits us very nicely(book of asur). Time to start an Elf book club (that means we club each other with books).
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Re: 1000-2000p list vs skaven

Post by Drstrangelove »

1. Doubtful. Skaven have amazing leadership thanks to their strength in numbers rule, so forcing panic checks is relatively pointless.
2. Yes. But so will 5 GG scouts.
3. Treemen are amazing against skaven, because munching S3 or S4 infantry is what those big guys do best. Yes, WLC can shoot them off in one go, but you'd have to be pretty darn unlucky. If you are taking WW to get rid of the WLC then you'll be fine.
4. Dryads are still good. There isn't all that much magical close combat stuff, mostly just shooting. And the shooting will be at other things mostly, and if they do decide to take pot shots at you with jezzails......well you are skirmishing, so -1 to hit helps. 2 S4 attacks at I5 on a skirmishing, fear causing model is nice when you are facing an infantry force like skaven (because you can choose your fights easier)
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Re: 1000-2000p list vs skaven

Post by Sidewinder »

1. - The points are better spent elsewhere.
2. - Easily in close combat. A minimum WW unit of five have 10 attacks to kill three T3 rats.
3. - The Treemen will be targeted and it loses its ward saves versus magic. It will have to rely on its toughness and Scaly Skin. If you use a Treemen, get it into combat as quickly as possible. Others will have more information/advice on this. I tend to play at lower points and do not normally use a Treemen.
4. - Dryads aren't very good against anything that has magical attacks. Without the ward save, you are relying on their initiative and strength, hoping to kill more than kill back.Their steadfast doesn't help if they are not in a forest. Use the Dryads to kill the rats that don't have magical attacks.
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