ETC List for Team Tournament

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jberrysf
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ETC List for Team Tournament

Post by jberrysf »

I'm heading to a big ETC style team tournament in June. In case you dont know, in ETC, all elves get ASF, Forest Spirit Wards don't disappear and BSBs can take upgrades. I'm starting to play test and look at different ideas, so I'd love feedback on this list, not just from a "this choice,that choice" perspective, but also from a "how will this play, what do I have to do here" question.

The last thing, is that I had the points to take 4 Treekin instead of the 20 Dryads, but wasn't sure it was the right choice. I'd love all types of comments and criticisms.

Spellsinger Level 4 Shadow, Rhymer's Harp
Spellsinge Level 3 Metal, Obsidian Lodestone (MR3), Scroll

Noble BSB, Eternal Kin, Light Armor, Shield, Great Weapon, Hail of Doom Arrow
Noble Wildrider Kin, Annoyance of Netlings, Helm of the Hunt, Dragonbane Gem

Glade Riders (5) Musician
Glade Riders (5) Musician
Dryads (8)
Dryads (12)
Glade Guard (10) Musician
Glade Guard (20) Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame
Glade Guard (20) Full Command

Wild Riders (10) Full Command, Banner of Swiftness

Great Eagles (2)

Thanks!
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Re: ETC List for Team Tournament

Post by Drstrangelove »

I'm not sure I really get how this list is supposed to play.
Where are the wizards going? Why all the magic resistance? Why two wizards?
Where is the bsb going? You don't have a combat unit he can go in (btw no point having shield and light armour with eternal kindred, as this kindred gives him a 5+ Save regardless of how he is armoured. No more no less).
Why two big units of GG? Typical builds have one larger one and the rest at base size.
Why the glade riders? As pretty much the only unit that gets no better under etc rules I struggle to see what they can do that something else can't do cheaper.

Overall I'm just confused. There's lots of shooting, lots of magic but no synergy that I can see whatsoever.
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Re: ETC List for Team Tournament

Post by Coyle_Ravane »

If you can explain how the list is meant to play, it would be a lot easier to help. Otherwise it's hard to make sense of this list. Also, if it's teams, who are you teaming with, and what kind of list are they likely to bring, as this affects how your army will fight too.

Finally, I thought etc was max 40 glade guard?
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jberrysf
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Re: ETC List for Team Tournament

Post by jberrysf »

The strategic intent is that the GG (draft 2 says you can take 50) sit back and pincushion 1 target at a time while the mages make it easier to kill those targets with The Withering, Plague of Rust, Transmutation of Lead and Enchanted Blades of Aiban. The Dryads babysit, speedbump and make use of stubborn in woods. The Glade riders and eagles redirect and the Wild Riders with the noble take out what ever threatens me outside of my capacity to handle ie Miners, Shades, Warlocks, War Machines, Hexwraiths, Terrorgheists.

I'd put the Wizards in one of the 20 man blocks of archers, garnering a 5+ ward from the harp and a 2+ against any magic. The BSB would probably be in the same unit, just for protection's sake.

Magic would be working as follows: Shadow serves to scare people with the threat of mindrazor, but really simply to Wither targets before shooting begins and punish with Pit of Shades; simultaneously, Metal is either taking out high armor targets, supplementing the Withering by cutting down armor with either Plague of Rust, Transmutation of Lead or Enchanted Blades and also threatening death stars with Final Trans. Final trans and Miasma also really go well together around controlling the movement phase, forcing stupidity tests and cutting cavalry movement to elvish movement, M5 to dwarven movement and slow things all the way down to m1 or m2.

The only real reason behind 20 man blocks of GG is to hinder disc lords or big daemons, just by picking up static res on ranks and banners, but also to give me more utility on enchanted blades. +1 to hit, with Armor Piercing on a unit of 10 is nice, but on units of 20 it is nicer. Also, if I survive a charge, stay alive on steadfast, during my turn, can use mindrazor to absolutely trash anything that is left. S8 deletes 1 up armor. ASF means my hits will hit.

As far as I've read, the Eternal kin bonus is not lost as long as the character doesn't take magical armor, so it serves to give him a 3+ armor save.

Does this help you get a sense of how the list is designed?
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Re: ETC List for Team Tournament

Post by Mollesvinet »

Having all of your expensive characters in a single unit is very dangerous. Even if they will have a tasty magic resistance. Problem is that if your opponent does manage to catch that unit, then its game over. In my opinion, the best defense of characters is to have as many units of glade guard as possible and then leave the unit if it gets whittled down. At the same time, spread characters across units, so that even if your opponent manage to catch a unit, he won't get your entire hero and lord selection.

I would also change the kit on your wildrider noble. I have been running a wild rider noble twice in my dragon list with stone of rebirth and potion of strength, i can highly recommend it. Mine was even the BSB, but that is less recommended especially with your list. Problem now is that if he doesn't get into the challenge, then he is mincemeat. This would reduce the options for the rest of the unit.

Shadow magic works great. Even if i usually just have the level 1 metal mage, then it is an interesting concept to reduce armor save. Not sure if its worth the point or if you will have enough magic dice though.

Eternal kindred does not get bonuses from equipment, its in the faq:

Q: If a model has Eternal Kindred, how does Eternal Guard
Fighting Style affect other weapons or magic weapons the model is
equipped with? What about armour or magic armour? (p18)

A: No matter what weapons or armour the model has, the
Eternal Guard Fighting Style takes precedence and causes it to
fight as if armed with two hand weapons in close combat
(meaning bonuses such as the +2 Strength for a great weapon
are lost) and to have a 5+ armour save (rendering additional
armour permissible but pointless). The exception to the above
is that if a model has a magic weapon or magic armour, they
lose the Eternal Guard Fighting Style special rule.
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Re: ETC List for Team Tournament

Post by jberrysf »

I agree that it is a bit risky to throw them all in the same unit. Naturally, when threats approach, I opt to take them out, but I find a ten man unit makes a weaker bunker due to easier targeting with magic missiles. Gateway is twice as likely to panic them and force a test on snake eyes, as opposed to on the general's leadership. That said, if you think it honestly makes a greater difference, I'll try it out. Hopefully the eagles, glade riders and dryads can render the question moot, though.

Damn. I was looking at the wrong FAQ. I guess I'll take light armor and an e shield.

I agree that it's a lot of points, but I have trouble taking a level 2 knowing I could roll plague of rust and gehanna's hounds against DoC and have no good choices. 3 dice probably pulls me final trans, golden robe or some sort of double. I hear you though. It's a ton of points.

Any other red flags?
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Re: ETC List for Team Tournament

Post by Drstrangelove »

Yeah I'd also query the wisdom of having 1000+ points in a unit of T3, zero armour elves (even with a 5++).
It literally only takes one unit to get in, and something will. A flying character/monster, a unit of monstrous cavalry........anything. It really isn't hard to make a beeline for a unit particularly if it's going to be in the centre of your deployment zero. And I wouldn't bank on being steadfast long enough to get mindrazor off: a unit of demigryphs is going to pull off 10 models a turn, a daemon price about the same.

Regardless, any opponent will worth their salt will kill the characters (only one of which can hide in the 2nd rank) leaving you testing on your steadfast Ld 9 without a reroll and without a shadowweaver left to cast mindrazor with in your turn.

You really are relying a lot on GG shooting pulling things off the board, which in a world of 1+ saves I don't really believe is enough. Otherwise you are hoping for big dice magic phases, which is hoping rather hopefully.

I don't really think this takes advantage of the ETC rules or the setup of a team tournament. Which kinds of lists are you hoping to get the match up against?
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Re: ETC List for Team Tournament

Post by jberrysf »

This list is set up to take other Elf lists, Brets, Beastmen, Lizardmen, Ogres and Demons with advantage. Lore of Metal gives me half a chance against Tomb Kings dwarves, WoC and Empire, while not matching well at all agains VC, Skaven and O&G.

Ok, so I agree that putting all the juicy targets in one squishy unit is a bad idea. This was clear and repeated from the get go, but I'm still left with a conundrum. Is there a safe(r) place to put them, or is it unsafe to take this heavy of points without more suitable places to bunker?

I agree that I am relying here quite heavily on my GG shooting, but that is the intent behind the redirectors and the combination of lores. Here's the thinking that went into this list. My biggest fears across the table from me are big units with ranks for days, and high armor save, small number units. In terms of taking on armor, a Machine Gun Highborn does not have high enough strength in his shooting to do the damage that lore of Metal does. Also, he doesn't get enough shots to really do hard damage to say Bloodcrushers. Knights, maybe, but anything he can do, Searing Doom can do better. Treekin are alright, they can put a good bit of pain on knights, but are very unweildy and often can't finish the job quickly enough to avoid getting hit in the flank or rear. At the same time, both they, and Treemen are big easy targets for Pit, Dreaded 13th, war machines and Purple Sun. At the same time, while they are some of the best units at our disposal for clearing loads of models out of tarpit-y hordes, They lose that fight to static res every time.

As I write this, I'm coming about to the idea that I can't go so far off the edge towards one side or the other (elf vs. spirit or ranged vs. combat approach.)

Here's a revised edition of this list:

Spellsinger Level 4 Shadow, Opal Amulet, Scroll

Noble BSB, Light Armor, Shield, Great Weapon, Hail of Doom
Noble Wildrider Kin, Charmed Shield, Dawnspear, Dragonbane Gem (With Tree Kin)
Noble Wildrider Kin, Potion of Strength, Stone of Rebirth (With Wild Riders

Glade Riders (5) Musician
Glade Riders (5) Musician
Dryads (11)
Glade Guard (10) Musician
Glade Guard (20) Full Command, Banner of Eternal Flame
Glade Guard (10) Musician

Tree Kin (6) Champion
Wild Riders (10) Full Command, Banner of Swiftness

Great Eagles (2)

Does that seem more balanced to you guys?
Last edited by jberrysf on 09 Mar 2014, 09:02, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ETC List for Team Tournament

Post by Mollesvinet »

I like the idea of the first list much better. Adding a single treeman and 4 treekin will split the list and make it lose focus. A single treeman is too much of a target as you said, although dreaded 13th can't hurt him but crack's call can. Shadow magic works better with elfs than trees in general anyway.

I think the main problem is the metal level 3, it's just too many points compared to what it gives you. I would stick with a level 1/2 on metal with the scroll. Some matchups barely have any targets for metal, then you will be happy to have paid less. It also makes the unit the metal mage joins less of a target. With a level 1/2 you can focus on the signature spell but leave the main spellcasting to the level 4. The level 4 i would give ranu's hearthstone, as far as i know it is the best item to increase the chances of casting mindrazor. Keep their equipment light, to have more points for other stuff. If you face alot of death magic, then i suppose you could take a magic resistance 3 or a 3++ talisman as well.

I find that many targets with high armor save are weak against pit of shades, and if you do face a high initiative low armor save unit then you have to redirect your way out of trouble and plaster it with the signature metal spell.

I wouldn't worry too much about panic, as you will be taking panic tests on a rerollable 9 most of the time. The only spell that really calls for a big bunker is dreaded 13th, but this spell is no longer so easy to get off in ETC as it can only be cast with 5 dice and you have a scroll. I suppose it would be nice with more reliable warmachine hunters in the list, but i think the wild riders are better used as a bodyguard unit to attack when your level 4 has no chance to escape. I use wardancers for this as they are pretty mean with mindrazor, but that is a preference.

Good luck in any case and be sure to let us know how it went!
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Re: ETC List for Team Tournament

Post by jberrysf »

Yeah, I threw in an edit there, with a bit more of a protective Anvil type unit to sit and really threaten anything moving forward too aggressively.
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Re: ETC List for Team Tournament

Post by jberrysf »

I also just found out that the draft in progress actually allows for 2600 points, so I almost want to go the entire opposite direction. 4 Tree Men!?!?

Treeman Ancient 325
Treeman Ancient 325

Noble BSB, Light Armor, Steed, Shield, Hail of Doom 136
Spellsinger Level 2 Life, Scroll, Elven Steed, 162
Spellsinger Level 2 Shadow, Opal Amulet, Elven Steed, 167

Glade Riders (5) Musician 129
Glade Riders (5) Musician 129
Glade Riders (10) Musician, Champion 258
Glade Riders (5) Musician, Champion 138


Wild Riders (6) Full Command, Banner of Swiftness 207

Tree Man 285
Tree Man 285
Great Eagles (1) 50
Total 2596

Life to regrow wounds, add to toughness or threaten Dwellers, shadow to nerf strength, toughness, threaten purple sun, pendulum or mindrazor AND to make flying treemen.
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Re: ETC List for Team Tournament

Post by Mollesvinet »

I'm afraid wood elves have been lowered to 2500pts in draft 2 of the etc 2014 comp pack.

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic ... 8&t=120430

This means no double ancient. To be honest, i think the ancient with AoN, a level 4 mage and 2 treemen are the better choice anyway in this kind of list.
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Re: ETC List for Team Tournament

Post by jberrysf »

That was what I thought and told my team, but draft 3 is out (https://docs.google.com/document/d/12RR ... ODzt20/pub) and it says 2600 again.
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Re: ETC List for Team Tournament

Post by Mollesvinet »

Thanks for pointing that out. The new draft is not met with alot of happiness on the etc forum though.

Good luck with your list, its definately quite unique. If you want life i would be tempted to take two level 2's instead, the chance of getting useless stuff on a single level 2 is too high in my opinion. I am interested to hear how 4 treemen work out, as i have just recieved my fourth treeman myself. I would just really miss the AoN on the ancient and level 4 magic, but lets see how it turns out!

EDIT: I can't find the link you provided on the etc forum, where did you find the link?
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Re: ETC List for Team Tournament

Post by godswearhats »

I would agree with double life if you are taking four Treemen. If you don't get Regrowth, you are left with just Lifebloom to heal them, and you're going to need more than just 2 wounds healed each turn (that assumes you can cast both spells - obviously not guaranteed with an L2).

I love the idea of a 4 Treeman list, but I can't see it being stronger than 3 Treemen + L4. If you do go back to 3 Treemen, think about taking a Cluster of Radiants on your TMA, in addition to the Annoyance. One extra dispel dice is not to be sniffed at.

I just looked at the comp pack - looks like Branchwraiths can take any lore of magic also, so think about taking a L1 on Beasts to really buff up a unit of Dryads for combat.
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