Wood Elves..my speculation for the new book.

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Re: Wood Elves..my speculation for the new book.

Post by Findecano »

Isn't 180pts a bit on the high side for a Highborn? Direct comparison to a high elf prince or DE Dreadlord should put them at 140 no? I don't really see any reason for them to be that much more than their high/dark cousins, and the reality is that combat characters are generally considered sub-par at their current points cost.

The base costs for your WD and WW lords look a little on the high side too.

I'd like to have the mounted nobles/highborns have the option to become a forest spirit as an upgrade, it removes any problems caused by joining forest spirit units (which is currently forbidden) and means we can make a proper wild rider character.
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Re: Wood Elves..my speculation for the new book.

Post by Phil Rossiter »

Gwill_of_the_Woods wrote:I was just thinking the extra allowance like Vampires & Slann get.
Fair point and WoC too. I think Bretts' are included in the magic item totals but it's an old book of course. How do Big Names work for Ogres?

Wild Riders could be big winners from this book, likely gaining ASF and possibly a true Ward too. Keeping the MR1 on top of that would be nice but if you can mess around with an extra Spite allowance a character might just be able to buy it and cover the unit. On the other hand the true Ward might not happen and ASF might be elves only (excluding Forest Spirits?). Unlikely though.
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Re: Wood Elves..my speculation for the new book.

Post by Billthesurly »

Wouldn't it be nice if they gave units the ability to have spites? I could see an entire forest of possibilites growing out of that. (pun intended)

Seriously. No opponent would ever be quite sure of what he was getting. One set of spites might make a unit just a bit better in hand to hand. Another set might make it more difficult to charge the parent unit. Another might make them just a tad harder to hit with missile fire. The possibilities and combinations are endless. None of the spites would be overwhelming but enough to make a slight difference and make the army more interesting and fluffy.
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Re: Wood Elves..my speculation for the new book.

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Re: Wood Elves..my speculation for the new book.

Post by Phil Rossiter »

Even a spite which gave a character MR 1 and a channel for 25pts say, could be useful to a unit.
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Re: Wood Elves..my speculation for the new book.

Post by hutobega »

Sprite for a unit.. -1 to hit in Close combat...would be sexy. or magic resistance 1. or somethign like that not over powered but makes each special unit a little more special :)
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Re: Wood Elves..my speculation for the new book.

Post by hutobega »

Sprite for a unit.. -1 to hit in Close combat...would be sexy. or magic resistance 1. or something like that not over powered but makes each special unit a little more special :)
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Re: Wood Elves..my speculation for the new book.

Post by Avian »

I'd quite like a Swarm unit of sprites, they're not that powerful but can overwhelm another unit by weight of numbers and it would give us a cheap chaff unit that behaves uniquely. Plus I kind of like the mental image of a bunch of chaos daemons getting mobbed and shredded by pixies :p

The other unit I'd love to see introduced is some kind of Stag monstrous cavalry unit not sure if they would be counted as monstrous beasts or not but they should definitely have impact hits for the antlers. One thing that would be quite interesting would be to have it so that they can only be lead by a Noble/Highborn on a Great Stag.

A bear as a monstrous beast would be cool but I really doubt it will happen.

The two Major things that are needed for the army are ASF which we will in all likelihood get given the other two elf armies have it, and for the tree spirits to have a proper Ward save. After all if My Dryads can consistently beat HE Swordmasters they don't need much upgrading I think.

IT's likley that our Prowess will not affect the tress spirits, but I doubt it will only affect shooting. Not counting Lords and Heroes only four of the 11 units we currently have are shooting units. BY comparison, the HE have 18 units (again not counting Lords and Heroes) 11 of which can rank up to make use of Martial Prowess. And those that can't seem to be the specialist units like chariots, warmachines and monsters. Making the WE prowess only affect shooting units would mean that a huge chunk of our core/special forces gain nothing from it, things like the Eternal guard, wardancers ect although arguably having ASF makes a big enough difference that it will still help hugely. But if we again compare that with the HE and how many units their prowess affects we have 4 of 8 core/special units that can shoot and would benefit from a shooting prowess, compare to 10 of 13 HE core/special units that benefit from their Prowess. Therefore I think that shooting will be a part of our prowess but there might well be other things in there to that benefit skirmishers as well perhaps? this would bring it to 7 of 13 units. This is total speculation though and I could well be wildly wrong!

If the shooting is given all bows ST4 and giving them quick to fire it will be a MASSIVE boost for us. Concentrated fire from a GG unit can already do a great deal of damage with ST4 but if we can do that at long range as well they will become very VERY dangerous. It would make even cavalry with a 2+ armour save pause for thought, sure they're saving on 3's but with the number of saves they will have to take they will still take significant casualties.

I really like the idea of the priests of Kurnos unit. If we could get those on stags it would be very cool but it's unlikely as they will probably be a dual kit with GR or WR if they are introduced. Alternativly the GR/WR will become one kit and the PoK will be in their own box?

As for characters I'm hoping for Ariel.. it would give that army an Uber mage like the other elves have and one thing that makes me think we might get her is that everything I've heard points to a may release for the WE and Ariel is pretty much the May Queen, tenuous but the sort of quiet in joke that GW might go for? we might well get some sort of treeman character as well or even rules for each of the named treemen in each of the books and a Combi Kit that does all of them.

Magic; Please dear god let them re-do the lore of Athel Lorren! at the moment it's just not worth my taking magic in lower points games. I'm much better off using the points for a noble or a BW because they are simply more effective. I imagine the points costs will also be dropped to bring them in line with other Elven armies and more access to other Lores.
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Re: Wood Elves..my speculation for the new book.

Post by irishfarmer »

Avian- If you are the same Avian that writes on the Warseer site, WELCOME! Its good to have you on Asrai! I certainly look forward to hearing from you about WE and your knowledgeable grasp of the Rumor Mill.

I like your statements about bear units. I think they would be amazing. Seeing more animal type units in the WE army would be a welcome addition. And swarm sprites, to me, is such an obvious add! I definitely would like to see that too.

As it is, probably ASF and a special ability with bows (rerolling ones to hit), along with a points cost adjustment for our units, particularly for gg and glade riders seems to be some things we are seeing as most likely coming for us. Maybe even a new hero character. Even if we don't get new units, as long as we get a new book with those changes, I will be really excited to buy it.
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Re: Wood Elves..my speculation for the new book.

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True Wards would certainly be a step forward. But against Daemons for example the big trees would still be vulnerable because of the ton of Flaming attacks they have. I suggest this our worst match-up. ASF would help beef up the elf combat units. Flying monsters would remain an issue as would 1+ saves. I feel the most important thing is reliable access to ranged S5+ attacks, whether from magic items, Spites or spells.
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Re: Wood Elves..my speculation for the new book.

Post by Findecano »

Ha, nice to see you here avian.

I've been wondering about our m.prowess and after reading through the Orion books again, what about something like hit and run of feigned flight for the whole army, that would help WE feel much more like a guerrilla fighting force and would help them play more like they do in the fluff. H&R would also help them in one of the biggest problems - the grind.

I do wonder if it might be a bit too powerful for everything to have it though (but I definitely think a H&R dance for Wardancers would be awesome.
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Re: Wood Elves..my speculation for the new book.

Post by Gwill_of_the_Woods »

Findecano wrote:Ha, nice to see you here avian.

I've been wondering about our m.prowess and after reading through the Orion books again, what about something like hit and run of feigned flight for the whole army, that would help WE feel much more like a guerrilla fighting force and would help them play more like they do in the fluff. H&R would also help them in one of the biggest problems - the grind.

I do wonder if it might be a bit too powerful for everything to have it though (but I definitely think a H&R dance for Wardancers would be awesome.
Would you have that work just as the Warhawk Rule, where you can choose to flee from combat at the end of the combat phase and automatically rally?
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Re: Wood Elves..my speculation for the new book.

Post by Coyle_Ravane »

Something I considered for a prowess type rule was this:

Wild Fury - during any turn in which this unit charged, it is treated as having extra1 full rank (of 5 models), for the purposes of rank bonuses, steadfast, and disrupting ranks. This applies even if the unit would normally not be able to receive these benefits (eg skirmishers receiving rank bonus)

This would effectively give units +1 rank bonus in combat, would enable smaller units to negate ranks in flank charges, and would make it a little easier to prevent opponents gaining steadfast. For example, if an alter noble charges a unit of 10 archers in two ranks, and kills 2, the archers have only 1 rank, the same as the alter, so they don't become steadfast.
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Re: Wood Elves..my speculation for the new book.

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irishfarmer wrote:Avian- If you are the same Avian that writes on the Warseer site, WELCOME! Its good to have you on Asrai! I certainly look forward to hearing from you about WE and your knowledgeable grasp of the Rumor Mill.

I like your statements about bear units. I think they would be amazing. Seeing more animal type units in the WE army would be a welcome addition. And swarm sprites, to me, is such an obvious add! I definitely would like to see that too.
Sorry I'm someone else! Thank you for the words of welcome none the less though :)

Having more units that are creatures of the forest would fit the army and it's fluff well, after all the rulers of the Asrai are avatars of the forest it'self. there are a couple of Athel Lorren's creatures already like the Dragon, eagles and Stag but more would be welcome perhaps something really nasty that lives in the deepest part of the forest. Something from the part of Athel Lorren that even the WE don't dare go into because it's so dangerous?

We also really need a unit of war badgers and a unit of psychotic squirrels with the special rule "ARGH YE GODS, IT'S GONE UP MY TROUSER LEG!" ;)
Phil Rossiter wrote:True Wards would certainly be a step forward. But against Daemons for example the big trees would still be vulnerable because of the ton of Flaming attacks they have. I suggest this our worst match-up. ASF would help beef up the elf combat units. Flying monsters would remain an issue as would 1+ saves. I feel the most important thing is reliable access to ranged S5+ attacks, whether from magic items, Spites or spells.
I HATE playing against Deamons. not because I always loose, I play WE I'm used to loosing fairly regularly, but because I get utterly kerb-stomped every time and no matter how I change my list or my tactics it always happens and frankly, it's boring. I don't mind loosing if the game is interesting but getting my face pushed in inside three turns is dull after the third time. I'm finding that I've not got anything that can take their units on equal terms. My Dryads get gubbed by rot flies that are damn near impossible to avoid because they fly and the shooting bounces off them, Eternal guard also get minced by them and then he hits me with a hoard of blood letters that either my Dryads/Treekin/EG can't kill quickly enough or my GG just get minced by. If I could at least put up a decent fight and feel like I had even a slim chance it would be interesting. Repeated walkovers on the other hand are dull. Sorry I'll stop ranting about the Trolly-est army in the game, they do my head in, partially because it's often (not always but quite always) power-gamers that use them which just makes them worse.
Findecano wrote:I've been wondering about our m.prowess and after reading through the Orion books again, what about something like hit and run of feigned flight for the whole army, that would help WE feel much more like a guerrilla fighting force and would help them play more like they do in the fluff. H&R would also help them in one of the biggest problems - the grind.

I do wonder if it might be a bit too powerful for everything to have it though (but I definitely think a H&R dance for Wardancers would be awesome.
I agree that giving it to everything would be overpowered. That would just feel broken, especially for something like Treekin/Treemen who are big and slow and hit like a freight train.

However, giving it to the Skirmishers would be awesome and fit them perfectly without breaking the army. perhaps a two part Prowess? Something that buffs the Skirmishers and the shooting? combining the move and shoot bonus and re-rolling ones to hit with hit and run on all skirmishers? It would however make Way watchers brutal and would make Wardancers very nasty as well. Dryads too would become an even scarier unit than they already are. the ability to flit from combat to combat as needed to support other units like TK and EG would be amazing! If they re-instated the rule that meant the WW were able to deploys anywhere that was out of line of sight and within 12" and they had this prowess, it would be incredible but very very broken, you'd be able to take out dwarf warmachines in two turns or so though perhaps not their new Gyrocopters/bombers. They were a nasty shock the first time I played against them, 'What?! Dwarves who move quickly and flank like WE? What is this madness?!"
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Re: Wood Elves..my speculation for the new book.

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Findecano wrote:Isn't 180pts a bit on the high side for a Highborn? Direct comparison to a high elf prince or DE Dreadlord should put them at 140 no? I don't really see any reason for them to be that much more than their high/dark cousins, and the reality is that combat characters are generally considered sub-par at their current points cost.
woops. Highborn points should have been 140 ( in line with other elven Lords ), with my wardancer and waywatcher lord variants at 180.
Phil Rossiter wrote:I'm certain the BS on WE Lords will go to 7 in line with other elves.
I have been playing for Wood Elves for years and never noticed that! I think thats bound to be standardised.

Someone asked about why I thought their should be priests of kurnous and why they should get spells ala Warlocks. The reason I think they might do that, is it would be a relatively simple dual kit with Wild Riders which definitely need replacing anyway. The Spells were chosen as augments based on the fluff reason of boosting other elves as they ride with the wild hunt.
Gwill_of_the_Woods wrote:@Rab- just re-read the OP, I agree with a lot of the stuff you mentioned with regards to Orion. However, I really don't think he'll get Savage beasts as a bound spell. What was your inspiration for that? He will most definitely lose those 2 dispel dice.
It was just a random idea to boost Orion, much more speculative than the other stuff I think!

Hopefull not long now, till more concrete information is available!

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Re: Wood Elves..my speculation for the new book.

Post by Phil Rossiter »

Personally I feel that Steadfast is not the worst thing out there for Wood Elves.

1+ armour yes, Flaming cannon yes, Steadfast not so much. We have Treemen, Eternal Guard, Ranked up archers. Shooting, redirection, combo-charges.
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Re: Wood Elves..my speculation for the new book.

Post by Coyle_Ravane »

With the hit and run idea, the thing is that running away is the one thing WE are still good at, we need a boost to our killyness, or, since we are already quite good at the actual killing part, a boost to our ability to make the enemy run away. Preferably one which doesn't require playing a totally conventional list if infantry blocks etc (although that being a viable option would be nice).
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Re: Wood Elves..my speculation for the new book.

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I feel Wood Elves are not very good at killing things, which is a large part of the problem. Magic and combat are weak, which leaves shooting. This is good against a lot of stuff but things like Demigryphs and Dragons just wade through it. At the moment we have almost no way to stop these going where they will and killing what they like. Fixing this is the challenge of the new book IMHO.
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Wood Elves..my speculation for the new book.

Post by Dalsgaard »

Maybe the strangelroot could be artillery dice, s5, AP, 6" from treeman OR 6" from any forest edge? That would make the treeman warmachinish without making him a stonethrower, and giving us something to deal with high toughness/high armour units.
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Re: Wood Elves..my speculation for the new book.

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My version of the M Prowess would be Movement Prowess and looks like this:

All Wood Elf units gain the Feigned Flight and Fire on the March abilities, as per Fast Cavalry. In addition, the Wood Elves may pick two charge reactions instead of one. For example, they may Stand & Shoot and then Flee. Units that are Immune to Psychology and not normally able to take a Flee reaction can now do so, and may also automatically rally after their flee movement.
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Re: Wood Elves..my speculation for the new book.

Post by Coyle_Ravane »

WizzyWarlock wrote:My version of the M Prowess would be Movement Prowess and looks like this:

All Wood Elf units gain the Feigned Flight and Fire on the March abilities, as per Fast Cavalry. In addition, the Wood Elves may pick two charge reactions instead of one. For example, they may Stand & Shoot and then Flee. Units that are Immune to Psychology and not normally able to take a Flee reaction can now do so, and may also automatically rally after their flee movement.
I'm not opposed to movement based prowess, but WE need to be less dependant on fleeing and avoidance, not more. Personally I would love to see infantry blocks such as glade guard and eternal guard have fast cavalry style free reforms. Or give them the full fast cavalry rule. It would make sense, as experience moving in tight formation through woods would make them more fluid on the move than tradional ranked infantry.
Phil Rossiter wrote:I feel Wood Elves are not very good at killing things, which is a large part of the problem. Magic and combat are weak, which leaves shooting. This is good against a lot of stuff but things like Demigryphs and Dragons just wade through it. At the moment we have almost no way to stop these going where they will and killing what they like. Fixing this is the challenge of the new book IMHO.
Ok, I agree that WE are not as killy now as they where when the current book was released, but ASF and point adjustments will go a long way towards putting us back where we where then. I don't know that it needs an army special rule for it.
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Re: Wood Elves..my speculation for the new book.

Post by FriedTaterExplosion »

The name of the prowess is not as important to me, as what it does. High Elves get to attack in additional ranks, Dark Elves get to re-roll ones to wound... I'd personally love to see something that helps us punch through armor. Army-wide armor piercing- is it too much to hope for? Especially if it is combined with existing archery/forestry rules.

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Re: Wood Elves..my speculation for the new book.

Post by Findecano »

Phil Rossiter wrote:Personally I feel that Steadfast is not the worst thing out there for Wood Elves.

1+ armour yes, Flaming cannon yes, Steadfast not so much. We have Treemen, Eternal Guard, Ranked up archers. Shooting, redirection, combo-charges.
I totally agree, I've never really had a problem with steadfast! the reality is that before steadfast existed a single squad of Wardancers were never going to slice and dice a unit of 50 night goblins with general and BSB support in one round anyway.

Most steadfast blocks can be dealt with by sustained bowfire and a combo charge from a few small heavy hitters like small dryad/Wardancer/big tree units.

Deathstar builds can be a major problem, and we tend to have to rely on our lord level casters to deal with them. That is one of the reason I've switched to the lore of beasts almost all the time now, amber spear is about the only thing we have that can deal with high save MC, and curse of anhreir is excellent for combatting enemy elite infantry or knights.
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Re: Wood Elves..my speculation for the new book.

Post by Findecano »

Avian wrote: I agree that giving it to everything would be overpowered. That would just feel broken, especially for something like Treekin/Treemen who are big and slow and hit like a freight train.
If it follows the prowess rules from the other two elven armies it will only be given to the elves, I'm pretty sure great eagles don't have the martial prowess rule (despite being ranked units for high elves now), nor do hydras get the murderous prowess rule.
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Re: Wood Elves..my speculation for the new book.

Post by Phil Rossiter »

Fast combat Lords can tackle MC but yes there is a need to deal with them at range too.

Deathstars? I agree, very hard to take down. WE's are good at picking off the support units though.
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