What units to use?

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Treebranch
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What units to use?

Post by Treebranch »

Hello

Im very new to WE and am currently planning on how to build my new army. Im not at all very good at 8th rules, since as a VERY slow painter, most my time during 8th has been spent painting rather than playing. Now i'v looked around and noticed that Dryads, Glade Guard, Great Eagles and Treekin are all must-haves in any half decent Wood Elf army. However, i'd like to know about the rest. The ones im interested in are:

Eternal Guard: For a newbi like me they look fairly decent in a very elf type of way on paper. Add a CC Hero/lord and their stubborn. WS 5, I 5, 2 Attacks, 5+ save seems rather common/decent across the board for elf elites. Are these guys actually any good in reality? Also, rule states that they fight "as if with spears", in the dated WE AB this is intended for 2 ranks, but with the change to spears in the 8th ed, does this mean they get to fight in 3 ranks, with the foremost rank getting 2 attacks each?

Warhawk Riders: As a Lizardmen player they seem like more expensive terradon riders that cannot dropp rocks, make no use of poison and cannot fly well through forrests. Do they have any uses? Love the models, hence why im asking. Only use I can think of is 1; Warmachine hunting along great eagles, and 2; preventing dangerous CC units from marching by sitting behind them/on a flank and cranking pot shots at them from close range.

Wardancers: WS 6/I 6, looks nice. They are of course very lightly armored, and not as mentaly durable as infantry due to their schirmishing rule. But since they can dance for 4+ ward and get another 6+ ward from their tattoes, does not that mean they are fairly well protected? And does this ward save meld together into a 3+ ward save, or are they taken sperately? The (I think) 16 pts cost is outrageous though. Temple guard are as much.

Waywatchers: Although I accept that the world does not need more fluff fanatics, im afraid I need to burden this forum with another one. Waywatchers are expensive to the point of insanity. But they are just plain wood elfy. Does this fluff heavy unit have any uses to this day? I was thinking 9 Waywatchers with a HoD arrow noble running alongside them. Could all but wipe out a sizeable lowT/low AS unit in one round with some luck. Or am I compleatly off my trolley?

Thanks for any offered help in advance.

Regards
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Re: What units to use?

Post by unicorn »

Treebranch wrote:Eternal Guard: For a newbi like me they look fairly decent in a very elf type of way on paper. Add a CC Hero/lord and their stubborn. WS 5, I 5, 2 Attacks, 5+ save seems rather common/decent across the board for elf elites. Are these guys actually any good in reality?
They are good, but extremely costly. You need 20+ models in order to be (and stay) effective, plus noble/highborn... and that is a LOT of points.
Also, rule states that they fight "as if with spears", in the dated WE AB this is intended for 2 ranks, but with the change to spears in the 8th ed, does this mean they get to fight in 3 ranks, with the foremost rank getting 2 attacks each?
3 ranks
Warhawk Riders: As a Lizardmen player they seem like more expensive terradon riders that cannot dropp rocks, make no use of poison and cannot fly well through forrests. Do they have any uses? Love the models, hence why im asking. Only use I can think of is 1; Warmachine hunting along great eagles, and 2; preventing dangerous CC units from marching by sitting behind them/on a flank and cranking pot shots at them from close range.
They are extremely costly for how fragile they are. In 8th ed, you can not hide them behind units/woods out of LoS, and they are extremely easy 120-160 VPs for your opponent. And that is BAD in 8th ed meta.
Beside this, they are pretty decent.

BTW, about that marchblocking - remember that it is pretty random and unreliable, as most armies have no problem to have ld 8+ and BSB re-roll for marching, so... Usually, you end up marchblocking noone. And even if you succeed, you can not calculate with it in your plans or rally on it in any way.
Wardancers: WS 6/I 6, looks nice. They are of course very lightly armored, and not as mentaly durable as infantry due to their schirmishing rule. But since they can dance for 4+ ward and get another 6+ ward from their tattoes, does not that mean they are fairly well protected? And does this ward save meld together into a 3+ ward save, or are they taken sperately? The (I think) 16 pts cost is outrageous though. Temple guard are as much.
Wardancers can do pretty nice in combination with other units. They are costly and fragile, but out of all listed units, they are the most "easily" to be made usefull. But you can dance only in combat, so you are fragile to shooting and warmashines, and to magic to some extend too (as ou have only 5+ ward against spells).
Tough they can be used fairly well, if you choose your targets carefully and if you combine them with other units properly.
Waywatchers: Although I accept that the world does not need more fluff fanatics, im afraid I need to burden this forum with another one. Waywatchers are expensive to the point of insanity. But they are just plain wood elfy. Does this fluff heavy unit have any uses to this day? I was thinking 9 Waywatchers with a HoD arrow noble running alongside them. Could all but wipe out a sizeable lowT/low AS unit in one round with some luck. Or am I compleatly off my trolley?
They can be VERY usefull against certain opponents. But it is the some as with WhRs - they are fragile and costly, so easy VPs for your opponent. Also, heavy-armored cavalry units and/or characters riding monsters are not very common (in general-purpose rosters) in 8th ed, and this was their main targets. They also suffers a lot from loosing their special deploy rule.
But besides this, they are very nice and decent unit. Especially if you manage to field them as 8-10 man wide unit and then keep them alive to not give this insane points to your opponent.
Unicorn's conversions (updated 1st Jun)
Painted
BSB, mounted noble, WD noble, Branchie, Alter, Treeman, 12 WR, 10 WD, 10 GR, 10 WW, 5 Dryads, 5 WhR, 6 Tk, Altar of Khaine
Finished
Treeman, 10 WD, dragon lord, Alter, 9 WhR, 5 GR, DE sin, OK Butcher, Beast heroes x5
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Re: What units to use?

Post by Shandrakor »

Here's my analysis of those units you've mentioned.

Eternal Guard: Your average-Joe Spearman elf unit with less than average rules and high points cost to boot. Not only that, but it requires a Highborn general to make them Core and not compete directly with Treekin. Most of the time, Glade Guard, which are base Core, are better than them for the same cost too. If they aren't Core, then the Treekin's effectiveness just demolishes them in the same Special points allotment. Really, the only reason to use them is for their ranks, hopefully negating enemy Steadfast, but with how fragile they are without a character using the Rhymer's Harp, they die too fast to make much use of those Steadfast negating ranks. Then if you put the Rhymer's Harp in, it becomes an all your eggs in one basket job, with a less than impressive unit to begin with. [To answer your question, you have it right, if by foremost you mean front rank.]

Warhawk Riders: So many points with so few uses. Sure, they can war machine hunt, but so can Great Eagles at less than half the minimum unit size cost for Warhawks. Other uses are largely the same answer, something else in the list fulfills the same job, at a cheaper cost. Further, about your March Blocking scheme: March Blocking can be ignored on a successful Leadership check, so it's largely useless against most armies these days.

Wardancers: While they can be put to good use, usually they're faaaaar too hit or miss to use in anything but for fun play. Too expensive for their fragility to shooting/magic/close-combat, they tend to not get used in favor of Dryads, a Core investment with a better stat-line and defenses. As for combining ward saves... You always just use the best ward available (not combined), unless the rules specifically state otherwise.

Waywatchers: They have some limited uses in shooting down heavy cavalry and being annoying, but are also really fragile to non-ballistic skill shooting or magic. Expensive to boot, they sometimes get taken against certain armies (Brettonians and Warriors of Chaos are examples) and are worthless against others (lots of blocks or non-killing blowable armies, Daemons and Ogres being examples).

Hope that helps. Poo, Unicorn beat me to the punch.
Well, my ideas for the next book turned out to be a bust.
But it was still fun working on something of this scale.
For those who care:
http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=22620
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Re: What units to use?

Post by Caitsidhe »

Treebranch wrote:Eternal Guard: For a newbi like me they look fairly decent in a very elf type of way on paper. Add a CC Hero/lord and their stubborn. WS 5, I 5, 2 Attacks, 5+ save seems rather common/decent across the board for elf elites. Are these guys actually any good in reality? Also, rule states that they fight "as if with spears", in the dated WE AB this is intended for 2 ranks, but with the change to spears in the 8th ed, does this mean they get to fight in 3 ranks, with the foremost rank getting 2 attacks each?
I don't like them. While they do have a nice attack output they fold like tissue paper. If either their Toughness or Strength was a (4) I might give them a second look, but until that time I just can't waste the points on them. Consider that Glade Guard in a horde formation will easily equal damage output (usually exceed it by quite a bit) when you factor in the shooting during closing, the stand and shoot, and then the bulk of attacks allowed by a Horde formation. Glade Guard will also be more durable because you opponent will have to get to them. They can do their damage from 30" away, well out of Dwellers range (or any of the other uber spells). Eternal Guard can ONLY do their damage by getting mixed up in close combat. This means you have to move them toward the opponent. It is highly likely that very few of them will still be there when the battle is joined. Into the valley rode the six hundred. :) Wait till our new book comes out and see if they are worth buying then. Right now we have far better choices.
Warhawk Riders: As a Lizardmen player they seem like more expensive terradon riders that cannot dropp rocks, make no use of poison and cannot fly well through forrests. Do they have any uses? Love the models, hence why im asking. Only use I can think of is 1; Warmachine hunting along great eagles, and 2; preventing dangerous CC units from marching by sitting behind them/on a flank and cranking pot shots at them from close range.
These are pretty models that suck. Don't invest in them until our new book makes it worth you coin and time. They have no uses whatsoever beyond giving you an even higher point handicap against the opponent. March blocking is not a reliable tactic anymore. It is far more likely NOT to work than otherwise.
Wardancers: WS 6/I 6, looks nice. They are of course very lightly armored, and not as mentaly durable as infantry due to their schirmishing rule. But since they can dance for 4+ ward and get another 6+ ward from their tattoes, does not that mean they are fairly well protected? And does this ward save meld together into a 3+ ward save, or are they taken sperately? The (I think) 16 pts cost is outrageous though. Temple guard are as much.
Wardancers are great if you can get them into combat at the right time. I do not use mine because there are too many factors to consider. I am not a gambler. I like reliable troops. Give me reliable damage output and survival over a unit that MIGHT go off or might get you nothing. It can't hurt to own them (I do) and there are times when I will put them on the table, like when I know who/what I'm playing. The right match up makes them useful. Since we cannot rely on getting the right match up at tournaments or in pick up games, I don't use them very often.
Waywatchers: Although I accept that the world does not need more fluff fanatics, im afraid I need to burden this forum with another one. Waywatchers are expensive to the point of insanity. But they are just plain wood elfy. Does this fluff heavy unit have any uses to this day? I was thinking 9 Waywatchers with a HoD arrow noble running alongside them. Could all but wipe out a sizeable lowT/low AS unit in one round with some luck. Or am I compleatly off my trolley?
Waywatchers are great. I use them all the time. If/when I want someone to deploy like a Scout, I use these instead. The price difference between Waywatchers and Scouts isn't that big but the perks are great. I like them for disruption, armor attrition, and hunting warmachines. I do NOT, however, waste the HODA arrow on them. There is no reason. The HODA is STR-4 all the way at 30" range. I can give it to a Wild Rider Noble and hit anything I want on the first turn if I like. If I'm going to boost the Waywatchers up with a character I give him/her items which increase their survival in close combat or against magic (like an obsidian item of some sort).
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Re: What units to use?

Post by Frimbleglim »

Caitsidhe wrote:
Waywatchers: Although I accept that the world does not need more fluff fanatics, im afraid I need to burden this forum with another one. Waywatchers are expensive to the point of insanity. But they are just plain wood elfy. Does this fluff heavy unit have any uses to this day? I was thinking 9 Waywatchers with a HoD arrow noble running alongside them. Could all but wipe out a sizeable lowT/low AS unit in one round with some luck. Or am I compleatly off my trolley?
Waywatchers are great. I use them all the time. If/when I want someone to deploy like a Scout, I use these instead. The price difference between Waywatchers and Scouts isn't that big but the perks are great. I like them for disruption, armor attrition, and hunting warmachines. I do NOT, however, waste the HODA arrow on them. There is no reason. The HODA is STR-4 all the way at 30" range. I can give it to a Wild Rider Noble and hit anything I want on the first turn if I like. If I'm going to boost the Waywatchers up with a character I give him/her items which increase their survival in close combat or against magic (like an obsidian item of some sort).
Interesting, that's a bit of a change from your old 'Ardboys list although I agree entirely with what you write here. The HODA is str 4 hits on 2+ anywhere on the board so no need for it to be near the enemy. Also worth noting is that you should never use a waywatcher noble or highborn.

You could put How about putting the HODA in a unit with the Razor Banner for str 4 AP at long range? Flaming too? Trouble is you have to target the same thing as the rest of the unit and there is something to be said for being able to shoot a different target.
Last edited by Frimbleglim on 10 May 2011, 15:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What units to use?

Post by Caitsidhe »

Frimbleglim wrote:Interesting, that's a bit of a change from your old 'Ardboys list although I agree entirely with what you write here. The HODA is str 4 hits on 2+ anywhere on the board so no need for it to be near the enemy. Also worth noting is that you should never use a waywatcher noble or highborn.
It is a change from my Ardboyz list. I still don't use them in my Ardboyz lists. :D Odd as it may sound I try to remove as much gamble from Ardboyz lists as possible. Waywatchers are great but there are too many opponents against whom they aren't going to pay the bills. In an Ardboyz list I only take units that are consistent. As to that advice about the Noble or Highborn... I don't. I took your advice. I use Waywatchers and stick a Scout Noble with them. It costs less and does the exact same thing.
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Re: What units to use?

Post by Frimbleglim »

Caitsidhe wrote:
Frimbleglim wrote:Interesting, that's a bit of a change from your old 'Ardboys list although I agree entirely with what you write here. The HODA is str 4 hits on 2+ anywhere on the board so no need for it to be near the enemy. Also worth noting is that you should never use a waywatcher noble or highborn.
It is a change from my Ardboyz list. I still don't use them in my Ardboyz lists. :D Odd as it may sound I try to remove as much gamble from Ardboyz lists as possible. Waywatchers are great but there are too many opponents against whom they aren't going to pay the bills. In an Ardboyz list I only take units that are consistent. As to that advice about the Noble or Highborn... I don't. I took your advice. I use Waywatchers and stick a Scout Noble with them. It costs less and does the exact same thing.
By them do you mean waywatchers or wardancers? You certainly took waywatchers in one list. The change from your 'Ardboyz list is that you are saying not to put HODA in the waywatcher unit here (I agree but You did it in your old Ardboyz list). The advise about the character was for the benefit of OP.
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Re: What units to use?

Post by Caitsidhe »

Frimbleglim wrote:
Caitsidhe wrote: By them do you mean waywatchers or wardancers? You certainly took waywatchers in one list. The change from your 'Ardboyz list is that you are saying not to put HODA in the waywatcher unit here (I agree but You did it in your old Ardboyz list). The advise about the character was for the benefit of OP.
I mean Waywatchers. I cut them from my Ardboyz list. You might be talking about one of my original all comer lists. I always take the HODA but don't give it to forward deployed units anymore as there isn't any need.
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Re: What units to use?

Post by Frimbleglim »

I see, yeah, I agree no need for HODA in a forward unit. I was referring to this list. http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=19691
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Re: What units to use?

Post by Caitsidhe »

Frimbleglim wrote:I see, yeah, I agree no need for HODA in a forward unit. I was referring to this list. http://www.asrai.org/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=19691
Yep. If you read down you will see that I had already taken the Scout Kindred advice for the Noble even in that one. By the time I had gotten to Ardboyz I had already taken Waywatchers out of my Ardboyz list entirely (see Wild Rider-centric list in another post). While I do adore the Waywatchers, the nature of Ardboyz makes them too dangerous to field. I felt it was highly likely that the types of opponents I would be facing, i.e. certain factions and lists made them a bad bet. I still feel that way. I use them in pick up and all comers lists all the time. I don't use them in Ardboyz lists because of the "usual suspects" I find across the table.
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Re: What units to use?

Post by OverlordSlayer »

Frimbleglim wrote: Interesting, that's a bit of a change from your old 'Ardboys list although I agree entirely with what you write here. The HODA is str 4 hits on 2+ anywhere on the board so no need for it to be near the enemy. Also worth noting is that you should never use a waywatcher noble or highborn.

You could put How about putting the HODA in a unit with the Razor Banner for str 4 AP at long range? Flaming too? Trouble is you have to target the same thing as the rest of the unit and there is something to be said for being able to shoot a different target.
Razor Banner would work during CC only since GG bows would have to have that special rule. The statement in the rulebook is clear about that.
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Re: What units to use?

Post by odinfellhammer »

Currently, I am using a Noble with 9 Wild riders and a noble with my wardancers. I also use a life wizard with 30 glade guard and a Tree man. I actually have been doing good. I am using a variety of tricks. I just put this army together. I am 4-7-1, and those losses were due to some bad luck and inexperience with the new 8th ed.
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Re: What units to use?

Post by TwistedHonour »

I was wondering if having a completely mounted wood elf army is legit (just wanna know because I think it would be fun to play, but I guess its fun winning as well :roll: )
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Re: What units to use?

Post by herenvardo »

TwistedHonour wrote:I was wondering if having a completely mounted wood elf army is legit (just wanna know because I think it would be fun to play, but I guess its fun winning as well :roll: )
It's legally viable, it that's what you are asking. A mounted general with a bunch of Glade Riders is 100% legal as long as the general stays within the 25% points allowance for lords or heroes (depending on what size of army you are doing).
After that, you can add in Wild Riders, Warhawk Riders, and more mounted characters, sticking within the points constraints. You would, however, have no rare choice available (although you may overstretch the concept and toss in a couple of eagles).

The main issue with that is that GR (which you'd be basically forced to take) are not really cost-effective. But sticking to the minimum points in Core and splitting them in minimum size units can make a quite funny harassing team (but, at the same time, they will be a VP pinyata for your opponent).

An alternative approach would be an army with Orion, lots of Wild Riders (with Orion these count as Core), and maybe some warhawk riders for harassment/WM hunting/cover fire. The main issue is that Orion himself is not really mounted (unless you think of him as the essence of Kurnous riding an elf), although he moves as fast as elven steeds (and shoots like a bolt thrower and fights like a monster!). Despite having your general on foot, this could be quite more viable than a GR-based list.

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Re: What units to use?

Post by Gammal »

Hello there m8. I have had the same problems as you. Trying to decide what units to use etc.

What I found:

1. If you think the model look cool, and you like the fluff, playing with them will be fun. (win or loose doesnt matter as much if your having fun)
2. If you like a certain type of play, IE a lot of shooting, that will give you the most satisfaction
3. Find a friend, proxy a few units, try them out, experiment, and find a play style that suits you
4. Make an army in your head, how do you want your army to look? Are there any units you like more than others, if so, make a list based on that unit.


NO UNITS ARE UNUSABLE!
Some are harder to use, but if you like the model, that shouldn't stop you!

Go go War-hawk riders! :)
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Re: What units to use?

Post by TwistedHonour »

heh, I was only wondering whether it is viable choice,
but yes I like the look of nine inch movement while shooting

I was considering getting this kind of army for a while, just never got around for it, and since I will be the only one out of my friends getting into WFB I wont get to test it out for a while :roll:

and hell yeah I like the look of Glade Riders ;)
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Re: What units to use?

Post by Overmind »

It's actually 18" move and shoot, as fast cav can march and shoot. I just wish they were more like 20pts...
My dream for 8th ed Wood Elves: Less need to use Trees, elves get better, less need for me to have a Lord Mage. Not the most realistic, but hey we've got to have wishlists eh?

ALL HAIL TREE MAMMOTH!
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Re: What units to use?

Post by TwistedHonour »

Even cooler

However I guess it would only be legit on a large board... :tear:
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Re: What units to use?

Post by Overmind »

Well in 7th it was possible to avoid being charged, but it is harder in 8th, and you can't really kill anything.
My dream for 8th ed Wood Elves: Less need to use Trees, elves get better, less need for me to have a Lord Mage. Not the most realistic, but hey we've got to have wishlists eh?

ALL HAIL TREE MAMMOTH!
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